quantization

classic Classic list List threaded Threaded
10 messages Options
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

quantization

Ray Klassen-3
I've used rosegarden for years now and generally love it. I use it mostly for composition. What I would love is to be able to enter notes straight from a synth keyboard and have the quantization in rosegarden remove all of the anomalies from my substandard playing and leave me with just notes as if I had entered them with the mouse. -- no staccatos tenutos or variations in velocity. and all starting and ending precisely as scored. Is this possible? 

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most
engaging tech sites, SlashDot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot
_______________________________________________
Rosegarden-user mailing list
[hidden email] - use the link below to unsubscribe
https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/rosegarden-user
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: quantization

D. Michael McIntyre-3
On 12/29/2016 02:38 PM, Ray Klassen wrote:

> with just notes as if I had entered them with the mouse. -- no staccatos
> tenutos or variations in velocity. and all starting and ending precisely
> as scored. Is this possible?

I've found there is no magic fix it button.  In principle the grid
quantizer should be your friend here.  Un-check [ ] Add articulations to
make that stuff go away, dial up the most likely parameters, and try
your luck.  In practice, the notation quantizer often does a better job.
  You can use Adjust -> Quantize -> Fix notation quantization to make
the durations you see on the page permanent.

I can't find an option to turn off tenutos and such while recording.
You can select all and use the trash can icon in the top right corner to
throw all those marks away.

All in all though, I've always found this to be a fiddly process.  You
try something, and it works well for most of a passage, but there is one
troublesome section where your playing was too far off.  Try a different
quantizer, different options, or just draw a bit of notation by hand.

The better you play, the better this works.  It has the most trouble
with slurs and grace notes, which tend to come out as a mangled tangle
of unintended chords.  In my own personal projects, I probably never get
more than 2/3 of the notation cleaned up using automatic tools.  My
playing is pretty dreadful.

--
D. Michael McIntyre

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most
engaging tech sites, SlashDot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot
_______________________________________________
Rosegarden-user mailing list
[hidden email] - use the link below to unsubscribe
https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/rosegarden-user
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: quantization

Ray Klassen-3
However dreadful your playing is, mine is probably worse. But the notation quantizer/Fix notation function does most of what I want. I can reset velocity across the board too. If I could just wholesale erase all of the tenutos/staccatos, that would probably do the trick.

Thanks for your help.

PS You're right. I would have expected magic from the grid quantize. what is it doing if it's not doing this?

On Thu, Dec 29, 2016 at 3:36 PM, D. Michael McIntyre <[hidden email]> wrote:
On 12/29/2016 02:38 PM, Ray Klassen wrote:

> with just notes as if I had entered them with the mouse. -- no staccatos
> tenutos or variations in velocity. and all starting and ending precisely
> as scored. Is this possible?

I've found there is no magic fix it button.  In principle the grid
quantizer should be your friend here.  Un-check [ ] Add articulations to
make that stuff go away, dial up the most likely parameters, and try
your luck.  In practice, the notation quantizer often does a better job.
  You can use Adjust -> Quantize -> Fix notation quantization to make
the durations you see on the page permanent.

I can't find an option to turn off tenutos and such while recording.
You can select all and use the trash can icon in the top right corner to
throw all those marks away.

All in all though, I've always found this to be a fiddly process.  You
try something, and it works well for most of a passage, but there is one
troublesome section where your playing was too far off.  Try a different
quantizer, different options, or just draw a bit of notation by hand.

The better you play, the better this works.  It has the most trouble
with slurs and grace notes, which tend to come out as a mangled tangle
of unintended chords.  In my own personal projects, I probably never get
more than 2/3 of the notation cleaned up using automatic tools.  My
playing is pretty dreadful.

--
D. Michael McIntyre

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most
engaging tech sites, SlashDot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot
_______________________________________________
Rosegarden-user mailing list
[hidden email] - use the link below to unsubscribe
https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/rosegarden-user


------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most
engaging tech sites, SlashDot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot
_______________________________________________
Rosegarden-user mailing list
[hidden email] - use the link below to unsubscribe
https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/rosegarden-user
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: quantization

Ray Klassen-3
Got it. the trash can

On Sat, Dec 31, 2016 at 3:43 PM, Ray Klassen <[hidden email]> wrote:
However dreadful your playing is, mine is probably worse. But the notation quantizer/Fix notation function does most of what I want. I can reset velocity across the board too. If I could just wholesale erase all of the tenutos/staccatos, that would probably do the trick.

Thanks for your help.

PS You're right. I would have expected magic from the grid quantize. what is it doing if it's not doing this?

On Thu, Dec 29, 2016 at 3:36 PM, D. Michael McIntyre <[hidden email]> wrote:
On 12/29/2016 02:38 PM, Ray Klassen wrote:

> with just notes as if I had entered them with the mouse. -- no staccatos
> tenutos or variations in velocity. and all starting and ending precisely
> as scored. Is this possible?

I've found there is no magic fix it button.  In principle the grid
quantizer should be your friend here.  Un-check [ ] Add articulations to
make that stuff go away, dial up the most likely parameters, and try
your luck.  In practice, the notation quantizer often does a better job.
  You can use Adjust -> Quantize -> Fix notation quantization to make
the durations you see on the page permanent.

I can't find an option to turn off tenutos and such while recording.
You can select all and use the trash can icon in the top right corner to
throw all those marks away.

All in all though, I've always found this to be a fiddly process.  You
try something, and it works well for most of a passage, but there is one
troublesome section where your playing was too far off.  Try a different
quantizer, different options, or just draw a bit of notation by hand.

The better you play, the better this works.  It has the most trouble
with slurs and grace notes, which tend to come out as a mangled tangle
of unintended chords.  In my own personal projects, I probably never get
more than 2/3 of the notation cleaned up using automatic tools.  My
playing is pretty dreadful.

--
D. Michael McIntyre

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most
engaging tech sites, SlashDot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot
_______________________________________________
Rosegarden-user mailing list
[hidden email] - use the link below to unsubscribe
https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/rosegarden-user



------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most
engaging tech sites, SlashDot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot
_______________________________________________
Rosegarden-user mailing list
[hidden email] - use the link below to unsubscribe
https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/rosegarden-user
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: quantization

D. Michael McIntyre-3
In reply to this post by Ray Klassen-3
On 12/31/2016 06:43 PM, Ray Klassen wrote:

> PS You're right. I would have expected magic from the grid quantize.
> what is it doing if it's not doing this?

Damn if I know.  I've never been able to figure it out from observing
the results, and I've never actually looked into that code.

--
D. Michael McIntyre

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most
engaging tech sites, SlashDot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot
_______________________________________________
Rosegarden-user mailing list
[hidden email] - use the link below to unsubscribe
https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/rosegarden-user
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: quantization

Ray Klassen-3
Ha ha. What a relief. I've tried to use grid quantize on midi files i've pulled down off the net and like users the world over I thought it must be something wrong with me.

On Jan 1, 2017 3:56 PM, "D. Michael McIntyre" <[hidden email]> wrote:
On 12/31/2016 06:43 PM, Ray Klassen wrote:

PS You're right. I would have expected magic from the grid quantize.
what is it doing if it's not doing this?

Damn if I know.  I've never been able to figure it out from observing the results, and I've never actually looked into that code.

--
D. Michael McIntyre

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most
engaging tech sites, SlashDot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot
_______________________________________________
Rosegarden-user mailing list
[hidden email] - use the link below to unsubscribe
https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/rosegarden-user
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: quantization

David Jones
Well, I use a lot of MIDIs found online for preparing hymns for my
church. I think a lot of those MIDIs weren't exactly recorded by the
best instrument player.

My own MIDI recordings are difficult to clean up. (Not that I'm a great,
"currently practiced up to my old skills" keyboard player.) But I often
think that MIDI's timing resolution is far more precise than that of any
human. So the duration of a recorded quarter note isn't the precise
960(?) that Rosegarden (might?) define it as. Then the quantizer gets to
try to figure out just how to handle something simple like the end of
the note. How far does the actual recorded note extend before the
quanitzer decides it's supposed to be a quarter note tied to a following
note?

Then toss in the apparent fact that Rosegarden really doesn't handle
MIDI tracks with 2 contrapuntal melodies on a track.

Quantization does seem to help situations where the bar lines Rosegarden
shows when importing a recorded MIDI - you know, where somehow more
beats end up in a measure than belong there?

I don't know, but with recorded hymn MIDIs, I've often found it faster
to just put in the notes in the score view than to try to clean things up.

One thing I find annoying about MIDI. Absolute time. Meaning a note that
on a score should play right here on beat 2 of measure 4, somehow got an
absolute time that puts it in some other measure entirely. I'm sure
there was a reason for this in the MIDI standard, but it bugs me!

On 01/01/2017 04:01 PM, Ray Klassen wrote:

> Ha ha. What a relief. I've tried to use grid quantize on midi files i've
> pulled down off the net and like users the world over I thought it must
> be something wrong with me.
>
> On Jan 1, 2017 3:56 PM, "D. Michael McIntyre"
> <[hidden email] <mailto:[hidden email]>>
> wrote:
>
>     On 12/31/2016 06:43 PM, Ray Klassen wrote:
>
>         PS You're right. I would have expected magic from the grid quantize.
>         what is it doing if it's not doing this?
>
>
>     Damn if I know.  I've never been able to figure it out from
>     observing the results, and I've never actually looked into that code.
>
>     --
>     D. Michael McIntyre


--
David W. Jones
[hidden email]
authenticity, honesty, community
http://dancingtreefrog.com

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most
engaging tech sites, SlashDot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot
_______________________________________________
Rosegarden-user mailing list
[hidden email] - use the link below to unsubscribe
https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/rosegarden-user
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: quantization

Lorenzo Sutton
In reply to this post by Ray Klassen-3
On 29/12/16 20:38, Ray Klassen wrote:
> I've used rosegarden for years now and generally love it. I use it
> mostly for composition. What I would love is to be able to enter notes
> straight from a synth keyboard and have the quantization in rosegarden
> remove all of the anomalies from my substandard playing and leave me
> with just notes as if I had entered them with the mouse. -- no staccatos
> tenutos or variations in velocity. and all starting and ending precisely
> as scored. Is this possible?

I guess it would be helpful if you could share a non-quantized piece (or
snipplet) so as to try various quantization options and maybe provide a
more precise suggestion.

Lorenzo.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most
engaging tech sites, SlashDot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot
_______________________________________________
Rosegarden-user mailing list
[hidden email] - use the link below to unsubscribe
https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/rosegarden-user
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: quantization

D. Michael McIntyre-3
In reply to this post by Ray Klassen-3
On 01/01/2017 09:01 PM, Ray Klassen wrote:

> Ha ha. What a relief. I've tried to use grid quantize on midi files i've
> pulled down off the net and like users the world over I thought it must
> be something wrong with me.

When I really think about it, the grid quantizer probably works better
than I appreciate.  It's just that the heuristic quantizer works much
better, and I always go with the best result.  It's specifically
designed to get the best notation on the page for a typical human
performance, and it looks for things humans do when they perform.

That is the one thing separating Rosegarden from every other application
on the planet, and it's just a back of napkin idea Chris had one day.
He closed one eye, made some guesses, and took a stab at coming up with
something.  It has issues that have existed since the first day, and he
never addressed any of them.  The whole thing is only very slightly more
refined than the first draft, as I recall.  Even so, it's an absolutely
brilliant first draft!  That thing is truly the only reason I stuck with
Rosegarden all these years.  You can find everything else in several
other packages, but only Rosegarden does this good of a job rendering
human performances as legible notation; all while preserving the
original human performance.

It mostly fails on grace notes, slurs, and heavily legato playing.  Plus
of course when your timing is just way to hell and gone, like mine.  I'm
a heavy off-the-beat player, and consistently hit everything either
ahead of or behind the mark.

--
D. Michael McIntyre

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most
engaging tech sites, SlashDot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot
_______________________________________________
Rosegarden-user mailing list
[hidden email] - use the link below to unsubscribe
https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/rosegarden-user
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: quantization

Ray Klassen-3
oh no doubt there. rah rah rosegarden!

On Mon, Jan 2, 2017 at 10:30 AM, D. Michael McIntyre <[hidden email]> wrote:
On 01/01/2017 09:01 PM, Ray Klassen wrote:

> Ha ha. What a relief. I've tried to use grid quantize on midi files i've
> pulled down off the net and like users the world over I thought it must
> be something wrong with me.

When I really think about it, the grid quantizer probably works better
than I appreciate.  It's just that the heuristic quantizer works much
better, and I always go with the best result.  It's specifically
designed to get the best notation on the page for a typical human
performance, and it looks for things humans do when they perform.

That is the one thing separating Rosegarden from every other application
on the planet, and it's just a back of napkin idea Chris had one day.
He closed one eye, made some guesses, and took a stab at coming up with
something.  It has issues that have existed since the first day, and he
never addressed any of them.  The whole thing is only very slightly more
refined than the first draft, as I recall.  Even so, it's an absolutely
brilliant first draft!  That thing is truly the only reason I stuck with
Rosegarden all these years.  You can find everything else in several
other packages, but only Rosegarden does this good of a job rendering
human performances as legible notation; all while preserving the
original human performance.

It mostly fails on grace notes, slurs, and heavily legato playing.  Plus
of course when your timing is just way to hell and gone, like mine.  I'm
a heavy off-the-beat player, and consistently hit everything either
ahead of or behind the mark.

--
D. Michael McIntyre

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most
engaging tech sites, SlashDot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot
_______________________________________________
Rosegarden-user mailing list
[hidden email] - use the link below to unsubscribe
https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/rosegarden-user


------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most
engaging tech sites, SlashDot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot
_______________________________________________
Rosegarden-user mailing list
[hidden email] - use the link below to unsubscribe
https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/rosegarden-user