Ugly notation formatting

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Ugly notation formatting

Silas Mortimer
Hi. I'm not only new to Rosegarden, I'm new to computer composing
beyond using guitarix/Hydrogen/Ardour for recording. I've been working
on a piece and learning bit by bit as I go along. Of course, this
means that I'm making a lot of mistakes as I go.

The trouble winds up in the notation editor. By the time I'm done
fixing whatever needs to be fixed in what I previously did, the
notation is left looking terrible, lol. Not *really* the software's
fault, but I would think that there might be a way to, oh, I don't
know, hit a button or menu item that would reformat the entire thing
to be a little more elegant and/or make sense?

What I'm currently writing is in 2/4 time, in the D melodic minor
scale. One example is at one point I wanted to make a chord ring out
longer than I'd originally put it and had already added notes after
it. I searched for what I should do there, and from what I gather, I
could only do that in the matrix editor. Is that the case? Anyway, I
did it there, and the notation not only looks bad, it no longer makes
sense. I think there might be a whole note listed in one bar (again,
it's in 2/4), and there's something that should be tied, plays like
it's tied, but it's not shown that way.

Is there some way I can keep the music as it is, but discard and
regenerate the notation? I apologize for my ignorance here.

I do love being able to do what I'm doing, though. This is a great application.

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Re: Ugly notation formatting

D. Michael McIntyre-3
On 04/06/2016 06:27 PM, Silas Mortimer wrote:

> Is there some way I can keep the music as it is, but discard and
> regenerate the notation? I apologize for my ignorance here.

It seems to me the most productive way to deal with your questions would
be for me to run through your composition with you, focusing on one
specific problem at a time.  Find a bar you dislike, and I will show you
what tools Rosegarden offers for dealing with those specific problems.

There will always be stuff to fiddle with, but once you gain experience
the fiddling will go faster.  Rosegarden pretty much represents a
compromise between how much hand work I have to keep doing due to a lack
of features, and how long it would take me to develop the features, if I
even could.  Dealing with a clunky Rosegarden eats a lot of time, but
writing features eats a lot more time.  Features are expensive to develop.

Honestly, I haven't managed a good one in several years now.  I've
started two or three ambitious projects that I just didn't have time to
complete.
--
D. Michael McIntyre

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Re: Ugly notation formatting

Lorenzo Sutton
In reply to this post by Silas Mortimer
Hi!

On 07/04/2016 00:27, Silas Mortimer wrote:

[...]

> One example is at one point I wanted to make a chord ring out
> longer than I'd originally put it and had already added notes after
> it. I searched for what I should do there, and from what I gather, I
> could only do that in the matrix editor. Is that the case? Anyway, I
> did it there, and the notation not only looks bad, it no longer makes
> sense. I think there might be a whole note listed in one bar (again,
> it's in 2/4), and there's something that should be tied, plays like
> it's tied, but it's not shown that way.

I think that's expected and software can't really help you there.

I guess this is the basic concept and conundrum of sequencer which (like
rosegarden) also support notation: if the notation is 'perfect' from a
visual/typesetting point of view it will sound mechanical from a
performance point of view. The matrix editor (aka Piano Roll in some
software) enables you to tweak notes so that e.g. they result more
realistic but that will inevitably screw notation.

Really, it's a conundrum in music itself. No one performs exactly what
is written on a score (some contemporary music can be an exception), so
imagine writing down on a score *exactly* what a performer is playing...

Rosegarden actually does have some 'intelligence' when it comes to
interpreting notation (e.g. dynamics), but it cannot 'imagine' what you
would like especially in terms of note onsets and lengths.

My recommendation would be to:
a.) use notation for:
1. Inputting notes when you are familiar or more comfortable with
traditional notation.
2. Want to concentrate on the notation aspects of your piece, e.g.
because you want to eventually publish it.

b.) Use the matrix editor when:
1. You want to concentrate on how your piece actually sounds.
2. You become familiar enough with the matrix paradigm to be able to
input notes directly there.
3. Adjust at the fine level not onsets, durations, velocities etc.

To conclude, take into account that some sequencers simply do not
provide notation, so think of Rosegarden as a sequencer with a (very
advanced compared to many sequencers) support for notation  ;)

Hope this helps.
Lorenzo.

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Re: Ugly notation formatting

David Tisdell
In reply to this post by Silas Mortimer
You could focus on how the piece sounds and when you have it the way you want, make a duplicate and clean it up from a notation point of view. For notation, I would just use a fermata where the matrix editor is messing with the notation.
I love the fact that RG is a musical swiss army knife but that does, as Lorenzo pointed out, introduce trade offs. If you want the best out of the sequencer and the notation editor, I would make 2 files.

Dave

On Wed, Apr 6, 2016 at 6:27 PM, Silas Mortimer <[hidden email]> wrote:
Hi. I'm not only new to Rosegarden, I'm new to computer composing
beyond using guitarix/Hydrogen/Ardour for recording. I've been working
on a piece and learning bit by bit as I go along. Of course, this
means that I'm making a lot of mistakes as I go.

The trouble winds up in the notation editor. By the time I'm done
fixing whatever needs to be fixed in what I previously did, the
notation is left looking terrible, lol. Not *really* the software's
fault, but I would think that there might be a way to, oh, I don't
know, hit a button or menu item that would reformat the entire thing
to be a little more elegant and/or make sense?

What I'm currently writing is in 2/4 time, in the D melodic minor
scale. One example is at one point I wanted to make a chord ring out
longer than I'd originally put it and had already added notes after
it. I searched for what I should do there, and from what I gather, I
could only do that in the matrix editor. Is that the case? Anyway, I
did it there, and the notation not only looks bad, it no longer makes
sense. I think there might be a whole note listed in one bar (again,
it's in 2/4), and there's something that should be tied, plays like
it's tied, but it's not shown that way.

Is there some way I can keep the music as it is, but discard and
regenerate the notation? I apologize for my ignorance here.

I do love being able to do what I'm doing, though. This is a great application.

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Re: Ugly notation formatting

Silas Mortimer
In reply to this post by Lorenzo Sutton
Oh, geez. It's been a long time since I've used a mailing list and I
sent my reply to Lorenzo personally. Thanks for your patience,
Lorenzo.

Okay, here's what I said in the reply:

Oh, it definitely does help. It's not a showstopper by any means. I
asked all of this mainly because a) I'm new to composing this way and
b) I figured it was messing up because of something *I* was doing
wrong and that there might be a way to fix it that for some reason *I*
wasn't finding. The only implied failings here are mine, trust me. If
this is just how it is, I'm fine with that.

Still, though, in that second example, even in the matrix editor, I
can't get the chord to ring out instead of sounding twice. What am I
doing wrong there?

On Thu, Apr 7, 2016 at 7:37 AM, Lorenzo Sutton <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Hi!
>
> On 07/04/2016 00:27, Silas Mortimer wrote:
>
> [...]
>
>> One example is at one point I wanted to make a chord ring out
>> longer than I'd originally put it and had already added notes after
>> it. I searched for what I should do there, and from what I gather, I
>> could only do that in the matrix editor. Is that the case? Anyway, I
>> did it there, and the notation not only looks bad, it no longer makes
>> sense. I think there might be a whole note listed in one bar (again,
>> it's in 2/4), and there's something that should be tied, plays like
>> it's tied, but it's not shown that way.
>
> I think that's expected and software can't really help you there.
>
> I guess this is the basic concept and conundrum of sequencer which (like
> rosegarden) also support notation: if the notation is 'perfect' from a
> visual/typesetting point of view it will sound mechanical from a
> performance point of view. The matrix editor (aka Piano Roll in some
> software) enables you to tweak notes so that e.g. they result more
> realistic but that will inevitably screw notation.
>
> Really, it's a conundrum in music itself. No one performs exactly what
> is written on a score (some contemporary music can be an exception), so
> imagine writing down on a score *exactly* what a performer is playing...
>
> Rosegarden actually does have some 'intelligence' when it comes to
> interpreting notation (e.g. dynamics), but it cannot 'imagine' what you
> would like especially in terms of note onsets and lengths.
>
> My recommendation would be to:
> a.) use notation for:
> 1. Inputting notes when you are familiar or more comfortable with
> traditional notation.
> 2. Want to concentrate on the notation aspects of your piece, e.g.
> because you want to eventually publish it.
>
> b.) Use the matrix editor when:
> 1. You want to concentrate on how your piece actually sounds.
> 2. You become familiar enough with the matrix paradigm to be able to
> input notes directly there.
> 3. Adjust at the fine level not onsets, durations, velocities etc.
>
> To conclude, take into account that some sequencers simply do not
> provide notation, so think of Rosegarden as a sequencer with a (very
> advanced compared to many sequencers) support for notation  ;)
>
> Hope this helps.
> Lorenzo.
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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> Rosegarden-user mailing list
> [hidden email] - use the link below to unsubscribe
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/rosegarden-user

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Re: Ugly notation formatting

Silas Mortimer
In reply to this post by David Tisdell
Yeah, I'm getting a better sense of the whole thing through this
thread. I like that it allows me to input notation as I find it a LOT
easier to think in that than the matrix editor, which, despite getting
the gist of it and being able to make modifications in it, I don't
fully understand yet.

Let me ask this, as I also don't have experience with things like
LilyPond: I think I saw that I can export to LilyPond, right? Could I
do that and then use shortcuts in LilyPond to "clean it up" visually?
To be specific, what I'm asking is if LilyPond has ways of easily
fixing problems like my first example.

On Thu, Apr 7, 2016 at 9:33 AM, David Tisdell <[hidden email]> wrote:

> You could focus on how the piece sounds and when you have it the way you
> want, make a duplicate and clean it up from a notation point of view. For
> notation, I would just use a fermata where the matrix editor is messing with
> the notation.
> I love the fact that RG is a musical swiss army knife but that does, as
> Lorenzo pointed out, introduce trade offs. If you want the best out of the
> sequencer and the notation editor, I would make 2 files.
>
> Dave
>
> On Wed, Apr 6, 2016 at 6:27 PM, Silas Mortimer <[hidden email]>
> wrote:
>>
>> Hi. I'm not only new to Rosegarden, I'm new to computer composing
>> beyond using guitarix/Hydrogen/Ardour for recording. I've been working
>> on a piece and learning bit by bit as I go along. Of course, this
>> means that I'm making a lot of mistakes as I go.
>>
>> The trouble winds up in the notation editor. By the time I'm done
>> fixing whatever needs to be fixed in what I previously did, the
>> notation is left looking terrible, lol. Not *really* the software's
>> fault, but I would think that there might be a way to, oh, I don't
>> know, hit a button or menu item that would reformat the entire thing
>> to be a little more elegant and/or make sense?
>>
>> What I'm currently writing is in 2/4 time, in the D melodic minor
>> scale. One example is at one point I wanted to make a chord ring out
>> longer than I'd originally put it and had already added notes after
>> it. I searched for what I should do there, and from what I gather, I
>> could only do that in the matrix editor. Is that the case? Anyway, I
>> did it there, and the notation not only looks bad, it no longer makes
>> sense. I think there might be a whole note listed in one bar (again,
>> it's in 2/4), and there's something that should be tied, plays like
>> it's tied, but it's not shown that way.
>>
>> Is there some way I can keep the music as it is, but discard and
>> regenerate the notation? I apologize for my ignorance here.
>>
>> I do love being able to do what I'm doing, though. This is a great
>> application.
>>
>>
>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> _______________________________________________
>> Rosegarden-user mailing list
>> [hidden email] - use the link below to unsubscribe
>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/rosegarden-user
>
>

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Re: Ugly notation formatting

Lorenzo Sutton
In reply to this post by Silas Mortimer
On 07/04/2016 16:39, Silas Mortimer wrote:
> Oh, geez. It's been a long time since I've used a mailing list and I
> sent my reply to Lorenzo personally. Thanks for your patience,
> Lorenzo.

Happy to help new RG users, it's the least one can do.. ;)

>
> Okay, here's what I said in the reply:
>
> Oh, it definitely does help. It's not a showstopper by any means. I
> asked all of this mainly because a) I'm new to composing this way and
> b) I figured it was messing up because of something *I* was doing
> wrong and that there might be a way to fix it that for some reason *I*
> wasn't finding. The only implied failings here are mine, trust me. If
> this is just how it is, I'm fine with that.
>
> Still, though, in that second example, even in the matrix editor, I
> can't get the chord to ring out instead of sounding twice. What am I
> doing wrong there?

Do you mean notes spanning multiple measures? My experience is that the
matrix editor doesn't always handle well tied notes... Try making tied
notes into longer notes (just 'pull' them with the mouse to the right)?

Or maybe I'm totally misunderstanding the issue.

Lorenzo.

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Re: Ugly notation formatting

D. Michael McIntyre-3
In reply to this post by Lorenzo Sutton
On 04/07/2016 08:37 AM, Lorenzo Sutton wrote:

> Rosegarden actually does have some 'intelligence' when it comes to
> interpreting notation (e.g. dynamics), but it cannot 'imagine' what you
> would like especially in terms of note onsets and lengths.

It also has totally separate durations and note timings for performance
and notation purposes.  You can have something that plays swung but
reads straight, for example.  You can have something that sounds like a
bunch of weird multi-dotted notes interspersed with weird multi-dotted
rests, yet reads very cleanly.

--
D. Michael McIntyre

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Re: Ugly notation formatting

D. Michael McIntyre-3
In reply to this post by Silas Mortimer
On 04/07/2016 10:44 AM, Silas Mortimer wrote:

> do that and then use shortcuts in LilyPond to "clean it up" visually?
> To be specific, what I'm asking is if LilyPond has ways of easily
> fixing problems like my first example.

The LilyPond export engine is very much GIGO.  Garbage in, garbage out.
  If the notation is a mess in Rosegarden, it will be even worse in
LilyPond.

I started playing a game and stayed up waaaaaaaaaaaaay past my bedtime,
so I don't have time to look at your examples just now.  I recognize the
kind of growing pains you are experiencing, and when I get time to
reply, I should be able to help you.  Just hang in there, and I'll get
back to you within 24 hours.
--
D. Michael McIntyre

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Re: Ugly notation formatting

Silas Mortimer
In reply to this post by Lorenzo Sutton
I did it again. Last time, Lorenzo, I promise.

So what I said:

Well, here's the problem: When I initially put the chord in, I made
the notes dotted whole notes, which made them span three measures.
And, now that I'm suddenly remembering what happened there, I
determined that a note BEFORE this chord needed to be longer, which
meant that I had to somehow move three measures worth of chord over to
start at the next measure. I realize that you can do this in the
matrix editor (in fact, that's the instance that drove me to look at
the matrix editor in the first place), but I was hoping to keep the
notation up with the piece as I went along, so I tried to do what I
could with the notation and wound up with what you see in the picture.

But THEN, something happened... I think maybe I had the erase tool
activated and forgot about that or something... I don't remember, but
whatever it was, either undoing didn't fix it or I didn't want to
undo. This removed the tie from that first half note to the quarter
note in the next measure. No problem, I figured, I can just select
them and tie them. Unfortunately, ever since then, it SHOWS the tie,
but it plays like it's not tied. Since I had worked out an earlier
problem (with this same chord) with the matrix editor, I tried that. I
get the same problem, though.

Might it be worth deleting the whole chord altogether and putting it
back in? At least in the matrix editor?

On Thu, Apr 7, 2016 at 10:21 AM, Lorenzo Sutton
<[hidden email]> wrote:

> On 07/04/2016 16:39, Silas Mortimer wrote:
>> Oh, geez. It's been a long time since I've used a mailing list and I
>> sent my reply to Lorenzo personally. Thanks for your patience,
>> Lorenzo.
>
> Happy to help new RG users, it's the least one can do.. ;)
>
>>
>> Okay, here's what I said in the reply:
>>
>> Oh, it definitely does help. It's not a showstopper by any means. I
>> asked all of this mainly because a) I'm new to composing this way and
>> b) I figured it was messing up because of something *I* was doing
>> wrong and that there might be a way to fix it that for some reason *I*
>> wasn't finding. The only implied failings here are mine, trust me. If
>> this is just how it is, I'm fine with that.
>>
>> Still, though, in that second example, even in the matrix editor, I
>> can't get the chord to ring out instead of sounding twice. What am I
>> doing wrong there?
>
> Do you mean notes spanning multiple measures? My experience is that the
> matrix editor doesn't always handle well tied notes... Try making tied
> notes into longer notes (just 'pull' them with the mouse to the right)?
>
> Or maybe I'm totally misunderstanding the issue.
>
> Lorenzo.
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> _______________________________________________
> Rosegarden-user mailing list
> [hidden email] - use the link below to unsubscribe
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/rosegarden-user

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Re: Ugly notation formatting

Silas Mortimer
In reply to this post by D. Michael McIntyre-3
I appreciate it. And it sounds like the game is good, lol.

On Thu, Apr 7, 2016 at 10:55 AM, D. Michael McIntyre
<[hidden email]> wrote:

> On 04/07/2016 10:44 AM, Silas Mortimer wrote:
>
>> do that and then use shortcuts in LilyPond to "clean it up" visually?
>> To be specific, what I'm asking is if LilyPond has ways of easily
>> fixing problems like my first example.
>
> The LilyPond export engine is very much GIGO.  Garbage in, garbage out.
>   If the notation is a mess in Rosegarden, it will be even worse in
> LilyPond.
>
> I started playing a game and stayed up waaaaaaaaaaaaay past my bedtime,
> so I don't have time to look at your examples just now.  I recognize the
> kind of growing pains you are experiencing, and when I get time to
> reply, I should be able to help you.  Just hang in there, and I'll get
> back to you within 24 hours.
> --
> D. Michael McIntyre
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> _______________________________________________
> Rosegarden-user mailing list
> [hidden email] - use the link below to unsubscribe
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/rosegarden-user

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Re: Ugly notation formatting

David Jones
In reply to this post by Silas Mortimer
Hmmm, I use only the notation editor. My understanding of notation is that a whole note is a whole measure. So if I have a note to be held longer than a measure (say 3), I put a whole note in each measure and tie them together. Not make a dotted whole note to get a note that runs longer than a measure.

Just my free contribution.

David W. Jones
[hidden email]
authenticity, honesty, community
http://dancingtreefrog.comOn Apr 7, 2016 02:37, Lorenzo Sutton <[hidden email]> wrote:

>
> Hi!
>
> On 07/04/2016 00:27, Silas Mortimer wrote:
>
> [...]
>
> > One example is at one point I wanted to make a chord ring out
> > longer than I'd originally put it and had already added notes after
> > it. I searched for what I should do there, and from what I gather, I
> > could only do that in the matrix editor. Is that the case? Anyway, I
> > did it there, and the notation not only looks bad, it no longer makes
> > sense. I think there might be a whole note listed in one bar (again,
> > it's in 2/4), and there's something that should be tied, plays like
> > it's tied, but it's not shown that way.
>
> I think that's expected and software can't really help you there.
>
> I guess this is the basic concept and conundrum of sequencer which (like
> rosegarden) also support notation: if the notation is 'perfect' from a
> visual/typesetting point of view it will sound mechanical from a
> performance point of view. The matrix editor (aka Piano Roll in some
> software) enables you to tweak notes so that e.g. they result more
> realistic but that will inevitably screw notation.
>
> Really, it's a conundrum in music itself. No one performs exactly what
> is written on a score (some contemporary music can be an exception), so
> imagine writing down on a score *exactly* what a performer is playing...
>
> Rosegarden actually does have some 'intelligence' when it comes to
> interpreting notation (e.g. dynamics), but it cannot 'imagine' what you
> would like especially in terms of note onsets and lengths.
>
> My recommendation would be to:
> a.) use notation for:
> 1. Inputting notes when you are familiar or more comfortable with
> traditional notation.
> 2. Want to concentrate on the notation aspects of your piece, e.g.
> because you want to eventually publish it.
>
> b.) Use the matrix editor when:
> 1. You want to concentrate on how your piece actually sounds.
> 2. You become familiar enough with the matrix paradigm to be able to
> input notes directly there.
> 3. Adjust at the fine level not onsets, durations, velocities etc.
>
> To conclude, take into account that some sequencers simply do not
> provide notation, so think of Rosegarden as a sequencer with a (very
> advanced compared to many sequencers) support for notation  ;)
>
> Hope this helps.
> Lorenzo.
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> _______________________________________________
> Rosegarden-user mailing list
> [hidden email] - use the link below to unsubscribe
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/rosegarden-user 
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Re: Ugly notation formatting

Silas Mortimer
I should start doing that.

Anyway, as I said before, I had to make the time signature 2/4, which
would make a whole note of four beats span two measures. I know it's
weird, but I started composing the piece on guitar and wound up having
trouble finding the right signature before finding that 2/4 worked
really well. Though now that I have a good portion of it down, I
should be able to come up with a better signature.

On Thu, Apr 7, 2016 at 1:31 PM, David Jones <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Hmmm, I use only the notation editor. My understanding of notation is that a whole note is a whole measure. So if I have a note to be held longer than a measure (say 3), I put a whole note in each measure and tie them together. Not make a dotted whole note to get a note that runs longer than a measure.
>
> Just my free contribution.
>
> David W. Jones
> [hidden email]
> authenticity, honesty, community
> http://dancingtreefrog.comOn Apr 7, 2016 02:37, Lorenzo Sutton <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>
>> Hi!
>>
>> On 07/04/2016 00:27, Silas Mortimer wrote:
>>
>> [...]
>>
>> > One example is at one point I wanted to make a chord ring out
>> > longer than I'd originally put it and had already added notes after
>> > it. I searched for what I should do there, and from what I gather, I
>> > could only do that in the matrix editor. Is that the case? Anyway, I
>> > did it there, and the notation not only looks bad, it no longer makes
>> > sense. I think there might be a whole note listed in one bar (again,
>> > it's in 2/4), and there's something that should be tied, plays like
>> > it's tied, but it's not shown that way.
>>
>> I think that's expected and software can't really help you there.
>>
>> I guess this is the basic concept and conundrum of sequencer which (like
>> rosegarden) also support notation: if the notation is 'perfect' from a
>> visual/typesetting point of view it will sound mechanical from a
>> performance point of view. The matrix editor (aka Piano Roll in some
>> software) enables you to tweak notes so that e.g. they result more
>> realistic but that will inevitably screw notation.
>>
>> Really, it's a conundrum in music itself. No one performs exactly what
>> is written on a score (some contemporary music can be an exception), so
>> imagine writing down on a score *exactly* what a performer is playing...
>>
>> Rosegarden actually does have some 'intelligence' when it comes to
>> interpreting notation (e.g. dynamics), but it cannot 'imagine' what you
>> would like especially in terms of note onsets and lengths.
>>
>> My recommendation would be to:
>> a.) use notation for:
>> 1. Inputting notes when you are familiar or more comfortable with
>> traditional notation.
>> 2. Want to concentrate on the notation aspects of your piece, e.g.
>> because you want to eventually publish it.
>>
>> b.) Use the matrix editor when:
>> 1. You want to concentrate on how your piece actually sounds.
>> 2. You become familiar enough with the matrix paradigm to be able to
>> input notes directly there.
>> 3. Adjust at the fine level not onsets, durations, velocities etc.
>>
>> To conclude, take into account that some sequencers simply do not
>> provide notation, so think of Rosegarden as a sequencer with a (very
>> advanced compared to many sequencers) support for notation  ;)
>>
>> Hope this helps.
>> Lorenzo.
>>
>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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Re: Ugly notation formatting

D. Michael McIntyre-3
In reply to this post by D. Michael McIntyre-3
On 04/07/2016 07:19 AM, Silas Mortimer wrote:

> Anyway, here's one example:
>
> https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B8p6zThp4KIdN2NyUXBRWHkxUHc/view?usp=sharing

Red bar lines are Rosegarden's way of telling you that something is
wrong.  The measure does not count correctly, and this typically happens
because it is too full.

The automagic tool that's supposed to fix this kind of thing is Adjust
-> Notes... -> Tie Notes at Bar Lines.

I constructed a test example, and of course it isn't working at all!
I'm not sure if that's a bug or my rusty understanding.

So the next easiest way to go at this is to select the whole note and
use Ctrl+2 to convert it into a half note.  Add another half note,
select the pair, and tie them manually.  (You can also use Ctrl+Alt+2 to
convert the whole note into a single half note with a performance
duration of a whole note.  The note will sound for two full measures of
2/4 but it will only be written as one half note.  It may not be a good
idea to have such an extreme difference between notation duration and
performance duration, but it's an option.)

If in doubt, erasing a bit of stuff and drawing that bit over again will
get you around a lot of glitches.  Some glitches are your fault, some
glitches are our fault.  Every time I get frustrated and think
Rosegarden is a hopeless piece of crap, I go play with Sibelius or
Finale.  Commercial software with years on us and presumably millions of
dollars invested in development is only marginally better, and
Rosegarden was built by rank amateurs.

> Here's one more:
>
> https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B8p6zThp4KIdSmZOdUx3eWR4YVU/view?usp=sharing

When notes are circled like that, you can interpret that to mean "there
is something awfully weird here.  To do anything to resolve this one, I
need the file you're working on.  (Send it directly to me if you're
shy.)  Then I can look at what's what and sort it out.  I'll walk you
through how I did what.

--
D. Michael McIntyre

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Re: Ugly notation formatting

Silas Mortimer
I don't mind sending it here.

On Thu, Apr 7, 2016 at 4:18 PM, D. Michael McIntyre
<[hidden email]> wrote:

> On 04/07/2016 07:19 AM, Silas Mortimer wrote:
>
>> Anyway, here's one example:
>>
>>
>> https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B8p6zThp4KIdN2NyUXBRWHkxUHc/view?usp=sharing
>
>
> Red bar lines are Rosegarden's way of telling you that something is wrong.
> The measure does not count correctly, and this typically happens because it
> is too full.
>
> The automagic tool that's supposed to fix this kind of thing is Adjust ->
> Notes... -> Tie Notes at Bar Lines.
>
> I constructed a test example, and of course it isn't working at all! I'm not
> sure if that's a bug or my rusty understanding.
>
> So the next easiest way to go at this is to select the whole note and use
> Ctrl+2 to convert it into a half note.  Add another half note, select the
> pair, and tie them manually.  (You can also use Ctrl+Alt+2 to convert the
> whole note into a single half note with a performance duration of a whole
> note.  The note will sound for two full measures of 2/4 but it will only be
> written as one half note.  It may not be a good idea to have such an extreme
> difference between notation duration and performance duration, but it's an
> option.)
>
> If in doubt, erasing a bit of stuff and drawing that bit over again will get
> you around a lot of glitches.  Some glitches are your fault, some glitches
> are our fault.  Every time I get frustrated and think Rosegarden is a
> hopeless piece of crap, I go play with Sibelius or Finale.  Commercial
> software with years on us and presumably millions of dollars invested in
> development is only marginally better, and Rosegarden was built by rank
> amateurs.
>
>> Here's one more:
>>
>>
>> https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B8p6zThp4KIdSmZOdUx3eWR4YVU/view?usp=sharing
>
>
> When notes are circled like that, you can interpret that to mean "there is
> something awfully weird here.  To do anything to resolve this one, I need
> the file you're working on.  (Send it directly to me if you're shy.)  Then I
> can look at what's what and sort it out.  I'll walk you through how I did
> what.
>
> --
> D. Michael McIntyre

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Re: Ugly notation formatting

Silas Mortimer
In reply to this post by D. Michael McIntyre-3
I was thinking so much about the attachment that I forgot to say thank
you. And that "Tie Notes at Bar Lines" was what I was looking for, but
I'm glad to know that it might not work, lol.

If I might ask, because I've been wondering about this, what makes
doing notation so difficult? I know, of course, that there are many
rules to notation regardless of how you do it, but it's so
mathematical that I just kind of assumed that this would be one of the
most trivial parts. Boy, was I wrong, lol. So yeah, what makes it so
hard?

On Thu, Apr 7, 2016 at 4:18 PM, D. Michael McIntyre
<[hidden email]> wrote:

> On 04/07/2016 07:19 AM, Silas Mortimer wrote:
>
>> Anyway, here's one example:
>>
>>
>> https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B8p6zThp4KIdN2NyUXBRWHkxUHc/view?usp=sharing
>
>
> Red bar lines are Rosegarden's way of telling you that something is wrong.
> The measure does not count correctly, and this typically happens because it
> is too full.
>
> The automagic tool that's supposed to fix this kind of thing is Adjust ->
> Notes... -> Tie Notes at Bar Lines.
>
> I constructed a test example, and of course it isn't working at all! I'm not
> sure if that's a bug or my rusty understanding.
>
> So the next easiest way to go at this is to select the whole note and use
> Ctrl+2 to convert it into a half note.  Add another half note, select the
> pair, and tie them manually.  (You can also use Ctrl+Alt+2 to convert the
> whole note into a single half note with a performance duration of a whole
> note.  The note will sound for two full measures of 2/4 but it will only be
> written as one half note.  It may not be a good idea to have such an extreme
> difference between notation duration and performance duration, but it's an
> option.)
>
> If in doubt, erasing a bit of stuff and drawing that bit over again will get
> you around a lot of glitches.  Some glitches are your fault, some glitches
> are our fault.  Every time I get frustrated and think Rosegarden is a
> hopeless piece of crap, I go play with Sibelius or Finale.  Commercial
> software with years on us and presumably millions of dollars invested in
> development is only marginally better, and Rosegarden was built by rank
> amateurs.
>
>> Here's one more:
>>
>>
>> https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B8p6zThp4KIdSmZOdUx3eWR4YVU/view?usp=sharing
>
>
> When notes are circled like that, you can interpret that to mean "there is
> something awfully weird here.  To do anything to resolve this one, I need
> the file you're working on.  (Send it directly to me if you're shy.)  Then I
> can look at what's what and sort it out.  I'll walk you through how I did
> what.
>
> --
> D. Michael McIntyre

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Re: Ugly notation formatting

Lorenzo Sutton
In reply to this post by D. Michael McIntyre-3


On 07/04/2016 17:55, D. Michael McIntyre wrote:
> On 04/07/2016 10:44 AM, Silas Mortimer wrote:
>
>> do that and then use shortcuts in LilyPond to "clean it up" visually?
>> To be specific, what I'm asking is if LilyPond has ways of easily
>> fixing problems like my first example.
>
> The LilyPond export engine is very much GIGO.  Garbage in, garbage out.
>    If the notation is a mess in Rosegarden, it will be even worse in
> LilyPond.

Still I did do some pretty crazy piano notation in RG which I then
exported and hacked in Lilypond. The great advantage of that was that
having worked in Rosegarden I could also have a very nice rendering of
the piano part.. So, as said I consider RG notation support (including
Lilypond export) way above average compared to many (even commercial)
sequencers... ;)

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Re: Ugly notation formatting

Lorenzo Sutton
In reply to this post by Silas Mortimer


On 07/04/2016 21:15, Silas Mortimer wrote:
> I should start doing that.
>
> Anyway, as I said before, I had to make the time signature 2/4, which
> would make a whole note of four beats span two measures. I know it's
> weird, but I started composing the piece on guitar and wound up having
> trouble finding the right signature before finding that 2/4 worked
> really well. Though now that I have a good portion of it down, I
> should be able to come up with a better signature.

Obviously I don't know the piece, but if you are using whole (semibreve
- 4/4) notes, why not switch to 4/4? While there *is* a difference
between 2/4 and 4/4 the fact you are using whole notes makes me guess
you are actually "thinking in fours".

Anyway, as David says notation-wise if are in 2/4 and want a note to
last 4/4 what you write is two tied minim notes (2/4).

>
> On Thu, Apr 7, 2016 at 1:31 PM, David Jones <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> Hmmm, I use only the notation editor. My understanding of notation is that a whole note is a whole measure. So if I have a note to be held longer than a measure (say 3), I put a whole note in each measure and tie them together. Not make a dotted whole note to get a note that runs longer than a measure.
>>
>> Just my free contribution.
>>
>> David W. Jones
>> [hidden email]
>> authenticity, honesty, community
>> http://dancingtreefrog.comOn Apr 7, 2016 02:37, Lorenzo Sutton <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>>
>>> Hi!
>>>
>>> On 07/04/2016 00:27, Silas Mortimer wrote:
>>>
>>> [...]
>>>
>>>> One example is at one point I wanted to make a chord ring out
>>>> longer than I'd originally put it and had already added notes after
>>>> it. I searched for what I should do there, and from what I gather, I
>>>> could only do that in the matrix editor. Is that the case? Anyway, I
>>>> did it there, and the notation not only looks bad, it no longer makes
>>>> sense. I think there might be a whole note listed in one bar (again,
>>>> it's in 2/4), and there's something that should be tied, plays like
>>>> it's tied, but it's not shown that way.
>>>
>>> I think that's expected and software can't really help you there.
>>>
>>> I guess this is the basic concept and conundrum of sequencer which (like
>>> rosegarden) also support notation: if the notation is 'perfect' from a
>>> visual/typesetting point of view it will sound mechanical from a
>>> performance point of view. The matrix editor (aka Piano Roll in some
>>> software) enables you to tweak notes so that e.g. they result more
>>> realistic but that will inevitably screw notation.
>>>
>>> Really, it's a conundrum in music itself. No one performs exactly what
>>> is written on a score (some contemporary music can be an exception), so
>>> imagine writing down on a score *exactly* what a performer is playing...
>>>
>>> Rosegarden actually does have some 'intelligence' when it comes to
>>> interpreting notation (e.g. dynamics), but it cannot 'imagine' what you
>>> would like especially in terms of note onsets and lengths.
>>>
>>> My recommendation would be to:
>>> a.) use notation for:
>>> 1. Inputting notes when you are familiar or more comfortable with
>>> traditional notation.
>>> 2. Want to concentrate on the notation aspects of your piece, e.g.
>>> because you want to eventually publish it.
>>>
>>> b.) Use the matrix editor when:
>>> 1. You want to concentrate on how your piece actually sounds.
>>> 2. You become familiar enough with the matrix paradigm to be able to
>>> input notes directly there.
>>> 3. Adjust at the fine level not onsets, durations, velocities etc.
>>>
>>> To conclude, take into account that some sequencers simply do not
>>> provide notation, so think of Rosegarden as a sequencer with a (very
>>> advanced compared to many sequencers) support for notation  ;)
>>>
>>> Hope this helps.
>>> Lorenzo.
>>>
>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Rosegarden-user mailing list
>>> [hidden email] - use the link below to unsubscribe
>>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/rosegarden-user
>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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Re: Ugly notation formatting

Martin Tarenskeen


>>> My understanding of notation is that a whole note is a whole measure.

Only in 4/4 or 2/2 time that is.

I would like to add that a whole REST can mean a whole measure, even if
time is not 4/4, if the rest is placed in the middle of an otherwise empty
bar! I have not tried if RG knows this.

--

MT

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Re: Ugly notation formatting

D. Michael McIntyre-3
In reply to this post by Silas Mortimer
On 04/07/2016 07:00 PM, Silas Mortimer wrote:

> I don't mind sending it here.

Got it, and took a quick look.  I need to take a more detailed look to
figure out what's going on here, and I will have to come back to this
tomorrow.  Everything is fixable though.  No worries.

--
D. Michael McIntyre

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