Midi Mixer problem

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Midi Mixer problem

Home
Hi all,

I'm a relative newbie to Rosegarden, so it's still possible I've missed
something...

When I import midi files, I find that for most files the Midi Mixer has
no affect.
Rosegarden will play the files at normal volume, but taking faders to
zero does nothing.
For about 20% of the midi imports that I've tried, it works perfectly, i.e.
when playing midi, I can set any level I need for any channel.
This problem is consistently repeatable, and I can can provide 2
different example files for the same song, where one always works and
one doesn't.
I've looked at Midimonitor and other decodes, but have not yet figured
out where the difference lies.
Any help would be greatly appreciated.  In every other way, Rosegarden
is exceeding all expectations.

Thanks,
Paul.


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Re: Midi Mixer problem

D. Michael McIntyre-3
On 01/16/2016 04:57 PM, Home wrote:
> This problem is consistently repeatable, and I can can provide 2
> different example files for the same song, where one always works and
> one doesn't.

Feel free to send me example files to look at.  The list bounces most
attachments, so just send them straight to me.

I'll have a look, and report my findings.
--
D. Michael McIntyre

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Re: Midi Mixer problem

Ted Felix-2
In reply to this post by Home
On 01/16/2016 04:57 PM, Home wrote:
> When I import midi files, I find that for most files the Midi Mixer has
> no affect.

   I suspect that the files have volume control change messages
sprinkled throughout.  MIDI tracks with dynamics (loud/soft transitions)
will have this problem.

Ted.

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Re: Midi Mixer problem

Home
Thanks Ted,
Interestingly, both of my example files have a number of volume events (type 7 I believe) throughout.  I would have thought that these should have been type 11 expression events which is a percentage of volume.  However, the file with more volume events works perfectly.
The effect is as though the mixer were being completely bypassed when playing the other file. 
Its not like the UI faders move or moving a fader briefly changes the volume.
Thanks,
Paul.

On Sat, Jan 16, 2016 at 6:22 PM, Ted Felix <[hidden email]> wrote:
On 01/16/2016 04:57 PM, Home wrote:
> When I import midi files, I find that for most files the Midi Mixer has
> no affect.

   I suspect that the files have volume control change messages
sprinkled throughout.  MIDI tracks with dynamics (loud/soft transitions)
will have this problem.

Ted.

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Re: Midi Mixer problem

Ted Felix-2
On 01/18/2016 02:43 PM, Home Stephens wrote:
> Interestingly, both of my example files have a number of volume events
> (type 7 I believe) throughout.  I would have thought that these should have
> been type 11 expression events which is a percentage of volume.

   Expression is used for performance things like string-swells, not for
mixing.

   When going from one synth to another, it's not unusual to go through
and redo all three of the dynamics-related MIDI events:

1. Velocity (in the note-on/note-off's)
2. Volume (CC)
3. Expression (CC)

   It's just the nature of MIDI.  And it can be quite a mess.

   I believe rg offers rulers to ease volume and expression tweaking.
Not sure about velocity.

Ted.

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Re: Midi Mixer problem

Abrolag
On Mon, 18 Jan 2016 15:46:35 -0500
Ted Felix <[hidden email]> wrote:

> On 01/18/2016 02:43 PM, Home Stephens wrote:
> > Interestingly, both of my example files have a number of volume events
> > (type 7 I believe) throughout.  I would have thought that these should have
> > been type 11 expression events which is a percentage of volume.
>
>    Expression is used for performance things like string-swells, not for
> mixing.
>
>    When going from one synth to another, it's not unusual to go through
> and redo all three of the dynamics-related MIDI events:
>
> 1. Velocity (in the note-on/note-off's)
> 2. Volume (CC)
> 3. Expression (CC)
>
>    It's just the nature of MIDI.  And it can be quite a mess.
>
>    I believe rg offers rulers to ease volume and expression tweaking.
> Not sure about velocity.
>
> Ted.


Just poking my nose in here :)

Velocity can really catch you out. A good synth will change the timbre as
well as the volume depending on key velocity.

--
W J G

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Re: Midi Mixer problem

Home
Thanks Guys,
I had assumed a clearer separation between volume and expression.  I guess I expected to see expression events throughout the file, but assumed that I should not see volume events apart from in the header.
Interestingly, I found yesterday that both of my sample files work perfectly on an old version of Cakewalk.
This would suggest that Cakewalk is handling things differently.
I had always thought that a midi file was being read in near real time, so intro at beginning of file and end at end of file.
From what I think I'm seeing now, it appears that the whole file is read in and parsed before start of play,
and the file structure is per instrument rather than in time order.
Once I know for certain what is happening, I could probably write a script in Perl or C to re-parse the midi file.

Thanks again for all your inputs.
Regards,
Paul.


On Mon, Jan 18, 2016 at 2:56 PM, Abrolag <[hidden email]> wrote:
On Mon, 18 Jan 2016 15:46:35 -0500
Ted Felix <[hidden email]> wrote:

> On 01/18/2016 02:43 PM, Home Stephens wrote:
> > Interestingly, both of my example files have a number of volume events
> > (type 7 I believe) throughout.  I would have thought that these should have
> > been type 11 expression events which is a percentage of volume.
>
>    Expression is used for performance things like string-swells, not for
> mixing.
>
>    When going from one synth to another, it's not unusual to go through
> and redo all three of the dynamics-related MIDI events:
>
> 1. Velocity (in the note-on/note-off's)
> 2. Volume (CC)
> 3. Expression (CC)
>
>    It's just the nature of MIDI.  And it can be quite a mess.
>
>    I believe rg offers rulers to ease volume and expression tweaking.
> Not sure about velocity.
>
> Ted.


Just poking my nose in here :)

Velocity can really catch you out. A good synth will change the timbre as
well as the volume depending on key velocity.

--
W J G

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Re: Midi Mixer problem

Ted Felix-2
On 01/19/2016 12:28 PM, Home Stephens wrote:
> This would suggest that Cakewalk is handling things differently.

   They might be scaling the volume events across the track.  That would
certainly be handy, but in the end, probably not as useful as it might
seem.  The final mix has to be tuned to the target synth.  And with rg's
volume controller ruler (in the matrix editor), you should be able to
accomplish that just as well as with cakewalk.

Ted.

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Re: Midi Mixer problem

Home
Hi Ted, Michael, Abrolag,

Thank you for all your responses on this.
 From Ted's guidance below, I was able to remove volume controllers in
the matrix editor.
This has given me back the ability to create my own mix.
I'm blown away by what I can do with Rosegarden, now that I better
understand its subtleties.

Thanks again,
Paul.



On 01/19/2016 11:48 AM, Ted Felix wrote:

> On 01/19/2016 12:28 PM, Home Stephens wrote:
>> This would suggest that Cakewalk is handling things differently.
>
>   They might be scaling the volume events across the track.  That
> would certainly be handy, but in the end, probably not as useful as it
> might seem.  The final mix has to be tuned to the target synth.  And
> with rg's volume controller ruler (in the matrix editor), you should
> be able to accomplish that just as well as with cakewalk.
>
> Ted.


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