Humanizing MIDI tracks

classic Classic list List threaded Threaded
20 messages Options
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Humanizing MIDI tracks

Florian Berger
Hi,

I want to humanize a quantized MIDI track, i.e. randomize velocity and
the start time of note on events within boundaries to make them sound a
little imperfect.

While Rosegarden offers some impressive options in the "Quantize" and
"Set Event Velocities", there apparently is no option to "randomize
between ...".

Does Rosegarden have any randomizing features for MIDI tracks, or any
other features to make MIDI arrangements sound more human?

Thanks,

Florian Berger

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Transform Data into Opportunity.
Accelerate data analysis in your applications with
Intel Data Analytics Acceleration Library.
Click to learn more.
http://pubads.g.doubleclick.net/gampad/clk?id=278785351&iu=/4140
_______________________________________________
Rosegarden-user mailing list
[hidden email] - use the link below to unsubscribe
https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/rosegarden-user
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Humanizing MIDI tracks

ram-19
The "interpret" function under the notation editor in the menu "adjust"
probably will do what you want, at least if you want your piece to sound
like it was played by human orchestral professionals.  If you want
something more "amateur" that can also be achieved but by using an
appropriate "amateur" soundfont or making one of your own with a bit of
editing using Swami.

Regards,

Rich Marschall




------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Transform Data into Opportunity.
Accelerate data analysis in your applications with
Intel Data Analytics Acceleration Library.
Click to learn more.
http://pubads.g.doubleclick.net/gampad/clk?id=278785351&iu=/4140
_______________________________________________
Rosegarden-user mailing list
[hidden email] - use the link below to unsubscribe
https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/rosegarden-user
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Humanizing MIDI tracks

D. Michael McIntyre-3
In reply to this post by Florian Berger
On 03/25/2016 03:47 AM, Florian Berger wrote:

> Does Rosegarden have any randomizing features for MIDI tracks, or any
> other features to make MIDI arrangements sound more human?

You haven't missed discovering anything.

--
D. Michael McIntyre

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Transform Data into Opportunity.
Accelerate data analysis in your applications with
Intel Data Analytics Acceleration Library.
Click to learn more.
http://pubads.g.doubleclick.net/gampad/clk?id=278785351&iu=/4140
_______________________________________________
Rosegarden-user mailing list
[hidden email] - use the link below to unsubscribe
https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/rosegarden-user
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Humanizing MIDI tracks

Florian Berger
In reply to this post by ram-19
Hi Rich,

thanks for the reply.

On 25.03.2016 09:00, [hidden email] wrote:
> The "interpret" function under the notation editor in the menu "adjust"
> probably will do what you want, at least if you want your piece to sound
> like it was played by human orchestral professionals.

No, I am afraid that will not be enough.


> If you want something more "amateur" that can also be achieved but by using an
> appropriate "amateur" soundfont or making one of your own with a bit of
> editing using Swami.

Uh, that would be a stretch for just getting some randomness in there.


I think I'll just go with Cubase for this task. On the FLOSS side I hear
Qtractor has something like it, so I might also give that a shot.

Thanks,

Florian


------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Transform Data into Opportunity.
Accelerate data analysis in your applications with
Intel Data Analytics Acceleration Library.
Click to learn more.
http://pubads.g.doubleclick.net/gampad/clk?id=278785351&iu=/4140
_______________________________________________
Rosegarden-user mailing list
[hidden email] - use the link below to unsubscribe
https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/rosegarden-user
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Humanizing MIDI tracks

ram-19

>
> On 25.03.2016 09:00, [hidden email] wrote:
>> The "interpret" function under the notation editor in the menu "adjust"
>> probably will do what you want, at least if you want your piece to sound
>> like it was played by human orchestral professionals.
>
> No, I am afraid that will not be enough.
>
>
>> If you want something more "amateur" that can also be achieved but by
>> using an
>> appropriate "amateur" soundfont or making one of your own with a bit of
>> editing using Swami.
>
> Uh, that would be a stretch for just getting some randomness in there.
>
>
> I think I'll just go with Cubase for this task. On the FLOSS side I hear
> Qtractor has something like it, so I might also give that a shot.
>
> Thanks,
>
> Florian
>

Further to the above, RoseGarden can use the Hydrogen drum synthesizer so
if you are looking for just randomization of rhythm that would be a way to
go.  On physical pitched instruments real humans don't actually make
"random" errors but instead tend to particular errors due to physical
difficulty of executing that part of the performance.  Hence the use of
"Amateur" soundfonts when one wants to simulate a high school band or
drunken performers.




------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Transform Data into Opportunity.
Accelerate data analysis in your applications with
Intel Data Analytics Acceleration Library.
Click to learn more.
http://pubads.g.doubleclick.net/gampad/clk?id=278785471&iu=/4140
_______________________________________________
Rosegarden-user mailing list
[hidden email] - use the link below to unsubscribe
https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/rosegarden-user
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Humanizing MIDI tracks

steve conrad-2
Two good things to randomize are timing and velocity, obviously.

Note velocities can be tweeked in the velocity ruler to get a faux random effect.

The start time and duration of notes can be given individual micro-adjustments in the note properties pop up. Pushing the tempo or just plain screwing it up can easily be replicated in this manner.

Maybe more labour intensive than one would hope, but certainly enough to breath some life into the rendering.

Playing with the pitch ruler can also get some of the starch out of a midi sequence.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Transform Data into Opportunity.
Accelerate data analysis in your applications with
Intel Data Analytics Acceleration Library.
Click to learn more.
http://pubads.g.doubleclick.net/gampad/clk?id=278785471&iu=/4140
_______________________________________________
Rosegarden-user mailing list
[hidden email] - use the link below to unsubscribe
https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/rosegarden-user
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Humanizing MIDI tracks

Lorenzo Sutton
In reply to this post by ram-19



>
> Further to the above, RoseGarden can use the Hydrogen drum synthesizer so
> if you are looking for just randomization of rhythm that would be a way to
> go.  On physical pitched instruments real humans don't actually make
> "random" errors but instead tend to particular errors due to physical
> difficulty of executing that part of the performance.

I think there is a difference between systematic errors (e.g. a hard to
play part, physical constraints of an intrument) or intentional
deviations from what a sequencer reproduces when perfectly quantizing
(e.g. rallentando, crescendo, sforzando...) and the 'natural' randomness
in tempo and velocity deriving from a human playing.

Ideally the former should be intentially 'programmed' in the MIDI
writing on a sequencer. The second can be addressed by adding some
randomness in tempo (note onsets, duration) and velocity.

Hence the use of
> "Amateur" soundfonts when one wants to simulate a high school band or
> drunken performers.

I think that it's much easier to do some randombess by hand in the
matrix editor in Rosegarden than editing a soundfont to get that effect.
It wouldn't be that hard to implement a live 'randomizer' e.g. in Pure
Data but then you'd have to playback the midi and re-record it in
Rosegarden which would be a bit cumbersome.
 From a meta-programming/logical point of view randomization isn't that
hard, once you establish the max randomisation (maybe a percentage of
something) you just cycle through all notes and change e.g. note onset.
I know.... easier said than done, but I'm sure some of the code which
already does bulk operations on selected notes (e.g. velocity changes)
could be reused? :)

Of course a humanizer/randomiser could be part of a wider 'groove
quantize' feature for Rosegarden, but I imagine that would be rather
complicated.

Lorenzo.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Transform Data into Opportunity.
Accelerate data analysis in your applications with
Intel Data Analytics Acceleration Library.
Click to learn more.
http://pubads.g.doubleclick.net/gampad/clk?id=278785471&iu=/4140
_______________________________________________
Rosegarden-user mailing list
[hidden email] - use the link below to unsubscribe
https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/rosegarden-user
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Humanizing MIDI tracks

Fernando A. Martin
I found this topic interesting. Once I tried to make a percussion ensemble with several latin percussion instruments. But some different percussion instruments when played at exactly the same time sound like a single instrument. At that time I added some delay to some notes manually. It was a laborious task. But recently I found an option that could do this quickly. Select one or more segments, go to the left pane "special parameters" / segment parameters / delay. Then choose the appropriate delay and all the notes in the selected segments will be played with that delay. (See the attached file. Measures 1-4 have no delay. Then hear the difference in measures 5-8 with delay.)
What happens in a real ensemble is that musicians don't play their instruments at exactly the same time. There's a delay of some mileseconds from one to another. You can simulate this with the feature above. The leading musician would start at the exact measure and others would receive small delays. That combined with interpret function would create very realistic music.

2016-03-29 8:06 GMT-03:00 Lorenzo Sutton <[hidden email]>:



>
> Further to the above, RoseGarden can use the Hydrogen drum synthesizer so
> if you are looking for just randomization of rhythm that would be a way to
> go.  On physical pitched instruments real humans don't actually make
> "random" errors but instead tend to particular errors due to physical
> difficulty of executing that part of the performance.

I think there is a difference between systematic errors (e.g. a hard to
play part, physical constraints of an intrument) or intentional
deviations from what a sequencer reproduces when perfectly quantizing
(e.g. rallentando, crescendo, sforzando...) and the 'natural' randomness
in tempo and velocity deriving from a human playing.

Ideally the former should be intentially 'programmed' in the MIDI
writing on a sequencer. The second can be addressed by adding some
randomness in tempo (note onsets, duration) and velocity.

Hence the use of
> "Amateur" soundfonts when one wants to simulate a high school band or
> drunken performers.

I think that it's much easier to do some randombess by hand in the
matrix editor in Rosegarden than editing a soundfont to get that effect.
It wouldn't be that hard to implement a live 'randomizer' e.g. in Pure
Data but then you'd have to playback the midi and re-record it in
Rosegarden which would be a bit cumbersome.
 From a meta-programming/logical point of view randomization isn't that
hard, once you establish the max randomisation (maybe a percentage of
something) you just cycle through all notes and change e.g. note onset.
I know.... easier said than done, but I'm sure some of the code which
already does bulk operations on selected notes (e.g. velocity changes)
could be reused? :)

Of course a humanizer/randomiser could be part of a wider 'groove
quantize' feature for Rosegarden, but I imagine that would be rather
complicated.

Lorenzo.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Transform Data into Opportunity.
Accelerate data analysis in your applications with
Intel Data Analytics Acceleration Library.
Click to learn more.
http://pubads.g.doubleclick.net/gampad/clk?id=278785471&iu=/4140
_______________________________________________
Rosegarden-user mailing list
[hidden email] - use the link below to unsubscribe
https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/rosegarden-user


------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Find and fix application performance issues faster with Applications Manager
Applications Manager provides deep performance insights into multiple tiers of
your business applications. It resolves application problems quickly and
reduces your MTTR. Get your free trial!
https://ad.doubleclick.net/ddm/clk/302982198;130105516;z
_______________________________________________
Rosegarden-user mailing list
[hidden email] - use the link below to unsubscribe
https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/rosegarden-user

delay.rg (23K) Download Attachment
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Humanizing MIDI tracks

Silas Mortimer
This is excellent! Good find! But tell me if I have this right: This
only works across multiple staves, right? Meaning, if you're making a
chord in a nonpercussion instrument, you couldn't use this method to
arpeggiate the chord, right?

If that's case, I wonder if it could be extended that way. In the
piece I recently wrote here about, I made an arpeggio using 16th notes
or something like that, but I'd rather leave the arpeggiation up to
the musician.

On Wed, Apr 13, 2016 at 4:43 PM, Fernando A. Martin
<[hidden email]> wrote:

> I found this topic interesting. Once I tried to make a percussion ensemble
> with several latin percussion instruments. But some different percussion
> instruments when played at exactly the same time sound like a single
> instrument. At that time I added some delay to some notes manually. It was a
> laborious task. But recently I found an option that could do this quickly.
> Select one or more segments, go to the left pane "special parameters" /
> segment parameters / delay. Then choose the appropriate delay and all the
> notes in the selected segments will be played with that delay. (See the
> attached file. Measures 1-4 have no delay. Then hear the difference in
> measures 5-8 with delay.)
> What happens in a real ensemble is that musicians don't play their
> instruments at exactly the same time. There's a delay of some mileseconds
> from one to another. You can simulate this with the feature above. The
> leading musician would start at the exact measure and others would receive
> small delays. That combined with interpret function would create very
> realistic music.
>
> 2016-03-29 8:06 GMT-03:00 Lorenzo Sutton <[hidden email]>:
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> >
>> > Further to the above, RoseGarden can use the Hydrogen drum synthesizer
>> > so
>> > if you are looking for just randomization of rhythm that would be a way
>> > to
>> > go.  On physical pitched instruments real humans don't actually make
>> > "random" errors but instead tend to particular errors due to physical
>> > difficulty of executing that part of the performance.
>>
>> I think there is a difference between systematic errors (e.g. a hard to
>> play part, physical constraints of an intrument) or intentional
>> deviations from what a sequencer reproduces when perfectly quantizing
>> (e.g. rallentando, crescendo, sforzando...) and the 'natural' randomness
>> in tempo and velocity deriving from a human playing.
>>
>> Ideally the former should be intentially 'programmed' in the MIDI
>> writing on a sequencer. The second can be addressed by adding some
>> randomness in tempo (note onsets, duration) and velocity.
>>
>> Hence the use of
>> > "Amateur" soundfonts when one wants to simulate a high school band or
>> > drunken performers.
>>
>> I think that it's much easier to do some randombess by hand in the
>> matrix editor in Rosegarden than editing a soundfont to get that effect.
>> It wouldn't be that hard to implement a live 'randomizer' e.g. in Pure
>> Data but then you'd have to playback the midi and re-record it in
>> Rosegarden which would be a bit cumbersome.
>>  From a meta-programming/logical point of view randomization isn't that
>> hard, once you establish the max randomisation (maybe a percentage of
>> something) you just cycle through all notes and change e.g. note onset.
>> I know.... easier said than done, but I'm sure some of the code which
>> already does bulk operations on selected notes (e.g. velocity changes)
>> could be reused? :)
>>
>> Of course a humanizer/randomiser could be part of a wider 'groove
>> quantize' feature for Rosegarden, but I imagine that would be rather
>> complicated.
>>
>> Lorenzo.
>>
>>
>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> Transform Data into Opportunity.
>> Accelerate data analysis in your applications with
>> Intel Data Analytics Acceleration Library.
>> Click to learn more.
>> http://pubads.g.doubleclick.net/gampad/clk?id=278785471&iu=/4140
>> _______________________________________________
>> Rosegarden-user mailing list
>> [hidden email] - use the link below to unsubscribe
>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/rosegarden-user
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Find and fix application performance issues faster with Applications Manager
> Applications Manager provides deep performance insights into multiple tiers
> of
> your business applications. It resolves application problems quickly and
> reduces your MTTR. Get your free trial!
> https://ad.doubleclick.net/ddm/clk/302982198;130105516;z
> _______________________________________________
> Rosegarden-user mailing list
> [hidden email] - use the link below to unsubscribe
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/rosegarden-user
>

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Find and fix application performance issues faster with Applications Manager
Applications Manager provides deep performance insights into multiple tiers of
your business applications. It resolves application problems quickly and
reduces your MTTR. Get your free trial!
https://ad.doubleclick.net/ddm/clk/302982198;130105516;z
_______________________________________________
Rosegarden-user mailing list
[hidden email] - use the link below to unsubscribe
https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/rosegarden-user
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Humanizing MIDI tracks

Silas Mortimer
Ignore that last question. Since you're using the matrix editor, I
suppose it's entirely possible there, where I wouldn't be able to use
it via the notation editor.

On Wed, Apr 13, 2016 at 4:58 PM, Silas Mortimer <[hidden email]> wrote:

> This is excellent! Good find! But tell me if I have this right: This
> only works across multiple staves, right? Meaning, if you're making a
> chord in a nonpercussion instrument, you couldn't use this method to
> arpeggiate the chord, right?
>
> If that's case, I wonder if it could be extended that way. In the
> piece I recently wrote here about, I made an arpeggio using 16th notes
> or something like that, but I'd rather leave the arpeggiation up to
> the musician.
>
> On Wed, Apr 13, 2016 at 4:43 PM, Fernando A. Martin
> <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> I found this topic interesting. Once I tried to make a percussion ensemble
>> with several latin percussion instruments. But some different percussion
>> instruments when played at exactly the same time sound like a single
>> instrument. At that time I added some delay to some notes manually. It was a
>> laborious task. But recently I found an option that could do this quickly.
>> Select one or more segments, go to the left pane "special parameters" /
>> segment parameters / delay. Then choose the appropriate delay and all the
>> notes in the selected segments will be played with that delay. (See the
>> attached file. Measures 1-4 have no delay. Then hear the difference in
>> measures 5-8 with delay.)
>> What happens in a real ensemble is that musicians don't play their
>> instruments at exactly the same time. There's a delay of some mileseconds
>> from one to another. You can simulate this with the feature above. The
>> leading musician would start at the exact measure and others would receive
>> small delays. That combined with interpret function would create very
>> realistic music.
>>
>> 2016-03-29 8:06 GMT-03:00 Lorenzo Sutton <[hidden email]>:
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> >
>>> > Further to the above, RoseGarden can use the Hydrogen drum synthesizer
>>> > so
>>> > if you are looking for just randomization of rhythm that would be a way
>>> > to
>>> > go.  On physical pitched instruments real humans don't actually make
>>> > "random" errors but instead tend to particular errors due to physical
>>> > difficulty of executing that part of the performance.
>>>
>>> I think there is a difference between systematic errors (e.g. a hard to
>>> play part, physical constraints of an intrument) or intentional
>>> deviations from what a sequencer reproduces when perfectly quantizing
>>> (e.g. rallentando, crescendo, sforzando...) and the 'natural' randomness
>>> in tempo and velocity deriving from a human playing.
>>>
>>> Ideally the former should be intentially 'programmed' in the MIDI
>>> writing on a sequencer. The second can be addressed by adding some
>>> randomness in tempo (note onsets, duration) and velocity.
>>>
>>> Hence the use of
>>> > "Amateur" soundfonts when one wants to simulate a high school band or
>>> > drunken performers.
>>>
>>> I think that it's much easier to do some randombess by hand in the
>>> matrix editor in Rosegarden than editing a soundfont to get that effect.
>>> It wouldn't be that hard to implement a live 'randomizer' e.g. in Pure
>>> Data but then you'd have to playback the midi and re-record it in
>>> Rosegarden which would be a bit cumbersome.
>>>  From a meta-programming/logical point of view randomization isn't that
>>> hard, once you establish the max randomisation (maybe a percentage of
>>> something) you just cycle through all notes and change e.g. note onset.
>>> I know.... easier said than done, but I'm sure some of the code which
>>> already does bulk operations on selected notes (e.g. velocity changes)
>>> could be reused? :)
>>>
>>> Of course a humanizer/randomiser could be part of a wider 'groove
>>> quantize' feature for Rosegarden, but I imagine that would be rather
>>> complicated.
>>>
>>> Lorenzo.
>>>
>>>
>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>> Transform Data into Opportunity.
>>> Accelerate data analysis in your applications with
>>> Intel Data Analytics Acceleration Library.
>>> Click to learn more.
>>> http://pubads.g.doubleclick.net/gampad/clk?id=278785471&iu=/4140
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Rosegarden-user mailing list
>>> [hidden email] - use the link below to unsubscribe
>>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/rosegarden-user
>>
>>
>>
>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> Find and fix application performance issues faster with Applications Manager
>> Applications Manager provides deep performance insights into multiple tiers
>> of
>> your business applications. It resolves application problems quickly and
>> reduces your MTTR. Get your free trial!
>> https://ad.doubleclick.net/ddm/clk/302982198;130105516;z
>> _______________________________________________
>> Rosegarden-user mailing list
>> [hidden email] - use the link below to unsubscribe
>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/rosegarden-user
>>

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Find and fix application performance issues faster with Applications Manager
Applications Manager provides deep performance insights into multiple tiers of
your business applications. It resolves application problems quickly and
reduces your MTTR. Get your free trial!
https://ad.doubleclick.net/ddm/clk/302982198;130105516;z
_______________________________________________
Rosegarden-user mailing list
[hidden email] - use the link below to unsubscribe
https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/rosegarden-user
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Humanizing MIDI tracks

D. Michael McIntyre-3
In reply to this post by Silas Mortimer
On 04/13/2016 05:58 PM, Silas Mortimer wrote:

> This is excellent! Good find! But tell me if I have this right: This
> only works across multiple staves, right?

Delay is per segment.  Not necessarily a stave, as you can have multiple
segments on the same staff.  The difference is kind of moot, since all
the members of a chord have to be in the same segment, so if you had the
notes in different segments (the new Split by Drum experimental feature
puts every discrete pitch into its own separate segment, so you could
accomplish this quickly) you could only fake a chord for notation purposes.

> If that's case, I wonder if it could be extended that way. In the
> piece I recently wrote here about, I made an arpeggio using 16th notes
> or something like that, but I'd rather leave the arpeggiation up to
> the musician.

A better way to handle that is no less tedious to set up.  You could
have the notation duration for all your notes be one thing, a quarter
note, say, and then you could edit the performance duration of each
member of the chord to get the arpeggio effect.  This is another one of
those helpful automations we could do with a proper arpeggiate function,
but I've never found the time.

In practice, I haven't found the time, because I never bother to tweak
the MIDI performance to that degree anymore.  If I'm writing for guitar,
the finished product is going to be a recording of the real thing, and I
leave a lot of stuff out of the performance MIDI that is tedious to do,
like strummed chords.
--
D. Michael McIntyre

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Find and fix application performance issues faster with Applications Manager
Applications Manager provides deep performance insights into multiple tiers of
your business applications. It resolves application problems quickly and
reduces your MTTR. Get your free trial!
https://ad.doubleclick.net/ddm/clk/302982198;130105516;z
_______________________________________________
Rosegarden-user mailing list
[hidden email] - use the link below to unsubscribe
https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/rosegarden-user
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Humanizing MIDI tracks

Silas Mortimer
On Wed, Apr 13, 2016 at 5:08 PM, D. Michael McIntyre
<[hidden email]> wrote:
> On 04/13/2016 05:58 PM, Silas Mortimer wrote:
>
> A better way to handle that is no less tedious to set up.  You could
> have the notation duration for all your notes be one thing, a quarter
> note, say, and then you could edit the performance duration of each
> member of the chord to get the arpeggio effect.  This is another one of
> those helpful automations we could do with a proper arpeggiate function,
> but I've never found the time.

No problem. I just need to work out how to add the arpeggio notation
in Lilypond. That shouldn't be too difficult. I recently printed out
the notation for a string section for something else I'm working on in
Rosegarden, and it looks beautiful. Only issue there, which isn't a
big deal, is that it seems like Rosegarden only allows me to specify a
key signature of major or minor. Is that the case? What I'm working on
(like the piece I posted about before) is in D harmonic minor. Would
it be possible to change it to where I can just add the sharps or
flats to the signature myself? In this instance, I could just make C a
sharp and I'm done. Again, this is something I can tweak with
Lilypond, though. I do need to learn to use that.

> In practice, I haven't found the time, because I never bother to tweak
> the MIDI performance to that degree anymore.  If I'm writing for guitar,
> the finished product is going to be a recording of the real thing, and I
> leave a lot of stuff out of the performance MIDI that is tedious to do,
> like strummed chords.

A pianist can also arpeggiate, though. Any instrument that can play a
chord is usually able to render an arpeggio. I, too, record real
guitar when I'm adding that.

But at the same time, it's really not urgent enough to mess with it,
either. If I ever learn to code better, though, I might take a look at
it myself, if that would be cool.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Find and fix application performance issues faster with Applications Manager
Applications Manager provides deep performance insights into multiple tiers of
your business applications. It resolves application problems quickly and
reduces your MTTR. Get your free trial!
https://ad.doubleclick.net/ddm/clk/302982198;130105516;z
_______________________________________________
Rosegarden-user mailing list
[hidden email] - use the link below to unsubscribe
https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/rosegarden-user
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Humanizing MIDI tracks

D. Michael McIntyre-3
On 04/13/2016 06:52 PM, Silas Mortimer wrote:

> No problem. I just need to work out how to add the arpeggio notation
> in Lilypond.

It's hacky and weird.  Use the text tool.  Choose type "LilyPond
Directive" and insert an "Arp."

That prints the squiggly arpeggio symbol on the score.  I never gave
Rosegarden the ability to represent this natively, and no one else ever
bothered either, so this is what we've got.  Hacky and weird.

> (like the piece I posted about before) is in D harmonic minor. Would
> it be possible to change it to where I can just add the sharps or
> flats to the signature myself? In this instance, I could just make C a

Somebody did a feature request for that fairly recently.  I have no
plans to implement it myself.  Our key signature support model is based
on the MIDI standard, tonic pitch, number of accidentals, major or minor.

I did a little research, and Finale didn't support non-standard key
signatures until 2009.  It had been under development for 21 years at
that point.

Everything I've ever seen in D harmonic minor is just written with a D
minor key signature and the sharps spelled out manually.

> A pianist can also arpeggiate, though. Any instrument that can play a
> chord is usually able to render an arpeggio. I, too, record real
> guitar when I'm adding that.

Same thing with a keyboard though.  In my own work, if I'm focusing on
the score, the performance is secondary.  If I'm focusing on the
performance, the score is secondary.  Sometimes I have two sets of parts
in the same file, because even as good as Rosegarden is at letting you
have a good performance and tidy notation, it isn't THAT good.  It would
take way more than arpeggio support to fix that, though I admit
arpeggios are definitely the biggest case that comes to mind where good
performing data is going to display like crap on the screen, and good
looking data is going to perform like crap.

Maybe it's worth more attention.  Then again, the other reason I never
went there is there are two ways to approach the problem.  The easy
thing is to have an arpeggio function that does what it does, and if you
don't like what it does, oh well.

That's not going to fly, and I know it.  What that boils down to is
having to write some dialog so you can set up exactly HOW Rosegarden
does the arpeggio.  Even steps, different curves, fast roll, slow roll.
  Complication up the bazzoo, and math math math.  I don't know how to
calculate no logarithmic dingleflummy Miss Scarlet, I is just a truck
driver with a liberal arts degree.

If you can't please everyone, displeasing everyone works too, and it's
the easiest and fastest way to go.  :-D

--
D. Michael McIntyre

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Find and fix application performance issues faster with Applications Manager
Applications Manager provides deep performance insights into multiple tiers of
your business applications. It resolves application problems quickly and
reduces your MTTR. Get your free trial!
https://ad.doubleclick.net/ddm/clk/302982198;130105516;z
_______________________________________________
Rosegarden-user mailing list
[hidden email] - use the link below to unsubscribe
https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/rosegarden-user
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Humanizing MIDI tracks

Silas Mortimer
On Wed, Apr 13, 2016 at 8:32 PM, D. Michael McIntyre
<[hidden email]> wrote:
> On 04/13/2016 06:52 PM, Silas Mortimer wrote:
>
>> No problem. I just need to work out how to add the arpeggio notation
>> in Lilypond.
>
> It's hacky and weird.  Use the text tool.  Choose type "LilyPond Directive"
> and insert an "Arp."

Thanks for the tip. I haven't figured out yet how to open a GUI for
it, which it seems like you're describing. I'll look that up.

> That prints the squiggly arpeggio symbol on the score.  I never gave
> Rosegarden the ability to represent this natively, and no one else ever
> bothered either, so this is what we've got.  Hacky and weird.

Better than nothing. In that piece I sent you, you probably know the
arpeggiation I'm talking about. It worked out pretty well using
sixteenth notes or whatever it was, don't you think? I could have used
something smaller for a faster arpeggio, as well.

> Somebody did a feature request for that fairly recently.  I have no plans to
> implement it myself.  Our key signature support model is based on the MIDI
> standard, tonic pitch, number of accidentals, major or minor.

All these years and I wish I had gotten into MIDI sooner. It used to
be super expensive, though. I remember that was part of what kept me
away.

> I did a little research, and Finale didn't support non-standard key
> signatures until 2009.  It had been under development for 21 years at that
> point.

Wow.

> Everything I've ever seen in D harmonic minor is just written with a D minor
> key signature and the sharps spelled out manually.

Yeah, I suppose that's better.

> Same thing with a keyboard though.  In my own work, if I'm focusing on the
> score, the performance is secondary.  If I'm focusing on the performance,
> the score is secondary.

I'm having trouble making myself just deal with one or the other, lol.
I suppose it just takes time and discipline.

> Sometimes I have two sets of parts in the same
> file, because even as good as Rosegarden is at letting you have a good
> performance and tidy notation, it isn't THAT good.

It's a LOT better than I expected I'd find, to be honest. It's
certainly not the pain in the butt it was when I first tried making
notation on a computer (which was a long time ago, of course, and I
did give up). If it sounds like I'm complaining a lot, trust me, I'm
really happy with what I've been doing. Maybe after I've used it
enough to take it for granted, I'll get annoyed by something, lol.

> Complication
> up the bazzoo, and math math math.  I don't know how to calculate no
> logarithmic dingleflummy Miss Scarlet, I is just a truck driver with a
> liberal arts degree.

I laughed out loud at that.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Find and fix application performance issues faster with Applications Manager
Applications Manager provides deep performance insights into multiple tiers of
your business applications. It resolves application problems quickly and
reduces your MTTR. Get your free trial!
https://ad.doubleclick.net/ddm/clk/302982198;130105516;z
_______________________________________________
Rosegarden-user mailing list
[hidden email] - use the link below to unsubscribe
https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/rosegarden-user
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Humanizing MIDI tracks

Lorenzo Sutton
In reply to this post by D. Michael McIntyre-3


On 14/04/2016 03:32, D. Michael McIntyre wrote:

> On 04/13/2016 06:52 PM, Silas Mortimer wrote:
>
>> No problem. I just need to work out how to add the arpeggio notation
>> in Lilypond.
>
> It's hacky and weird.  Use the text tool.  Choose type "LilyPond
> Directive" and insert an "Arp."
>
> That prints the squiggly arpeggio symbol on the score.  I never gave
> Rosegarden the ability to represent this natively, and no one else ever
> bothered either, so this is what we've got.  Hacky and weird.

IMHO Rosegarden *shoud not* become / be a fully-fledged notation /
lilypond editor and focus on being the (great) free (as in freedom)
sequencer it is :)

I mean, I don't want to bash discussions etc. about notation, but
Rosegarden already has some of the best notation support for any
sequencer around, and personally I would like to see (possible) effort
go into bugfixing and improvements in the sequencer / production department.

Randomization, 'humanisation', groove quantize etc. (the subject of the
thread) would be cool and are IMHO part of those possible improvements ;)

Just my two cents :)
Lorenzo.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Find and fix application performance issues faster with Applications Manager
Applications Manager provides deep performance insights into multiple tiers of
your business applications. It resolves application problems quickly and
reduces your MTTR. Get your free trial!
https://ad.doubleclick.net/ddm/clk/302982198;130105516;z
_______________________________________________
Rosegarden-user mailing list
[hidden email] - use the link below to unsubscribe
https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/rosegarden-user
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Humanizing MIDI tracks

ram-19
With respect to all the issues with respect to notation, compositional
aids, humanized tracks, etc:

I kinda hate to bring it up, but perhaps the RoseGarden developers should
take a look at another Open Source project --- Impro-Visor
and "lift a whole bunch of tools out of it.

As computers continue to get more powerful, I can envisage the two
projects merging.  Right now, nearly all professionals using Impro-Visor
and the vast majority of students generate files they touch up and
orchestrate in RoseGarden.

Such an application would not be "thin", I've got around 2000 cores
working on Impro-Visor routinely with another thousand or so readily
available, so that is serious music AI.  RoseGarden then applies serious
leverage to Impro-Visor results.

OK, I've said it.  A live grenade in the room.

Have fun,



>
>
> On 14/04/2016 03:32, D. Michael McIntyre wrote:
>> On 04/13/2016 06:52 PM, Silas Mortimer wrote:
>>
>>> No problem. I just need to work out how to add the arpeggio notation
>>> in Lilypond.
>>
>> It's hacky and weird.  Use the text tool.  Choose type "LilyPond
>> Directive" and insert an "Arp."
>>
>> That prints the squiggly arpeggio symbol on the score.  I never gave
>> Rosegarden the ability to represent this natively, and no one else ever
>> bothered either, so this is what we've got.  Hacky and weird.
>
> IMHO Rosegarden *shoud not* become / be a fully-fledged notation /
> lilypond editor and focus on being the (great) free (as in freedom)
> sequencer it is :)
>
> I mean, I don't want to bash discussions etc. about notation, but
> Rosegarden already has some of the best notation support for any
> sequencer around, and personally I would like to see (possible) effort
> go into bugfixing and improvements in the sequencer / production
> department.
>
> Randomization, 'humanisation', groove quantize etc. (the subject of the
> thread) would be cool and are IMHO part of those possible improvements ;)
>
> Just my two cents :)
> Lorenzo.
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Find and fix application performance issues faster with Applications
> Manager
> Applications Manager provides deep performance insights into multiple
> tiers of
> your business applications. It resolves application problems quickly and
> reduces your MTTR. Get your free trial!
> https://ad.doubleclick.net/ddm/clk/302982198;130105516;z
> _______________________________________________
> Rosegarden-user mailing list
> [hidden email] - use the link below to unsubscribe
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/rosegarden-user
>



------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Find and fix application performance issues faster with Applications Manager
Applications Manager provides deep performance insights into multiple tiers of
your business applications. It resolves application problems quickly and
reduces your MTTR. Get your free trial!
https://ad.doubleclick.net/ddm/clk/302982198;130105516;z
_______________________________________________
Rosegarden-user mailing list
[hidden email] - use the link below to unsubscribe
https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/rosegarden-user
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Humanizing MIDI tracks

Fernando A. Martin
I'm the one who some months ago asked for an automatic strummer/arpeggiator function and also asked for a custom key signature creator. As Michael said above he doesn't have plans to implement it by now.
So we have both ways to deal with by now:
1 - For strumming arpeggiated chords: we can place each note of the chord in a different segment and then set the delay of each segment. I think this is faster than writing the whole chord in a single segment and then changing the delay of each note individually.
2 - For key signature: you can choose any key signature you want. Then if you're going to input notes using mouse and keyboard, before typing a note hold ctrl and then place the note and it'll be flat or before typing the note hold shift and then place the note and it'll be sharp. (Currently I've been writing arabic music then imagine how laborious it is write staves in maqamat hijaz (D Eb F# G A Bb C D) or Saba (D Eb F Gb A bB C D) without custom key signatures. The best way I found was to hold ctrl or shift.)

2016-04-14 8:16 GMT-03:00 <[hidden email]>:
With respect to all the issues with respect to notation, compositional
aids, humanized tracks, etc:

I kinda hate to bring it up, but perhaps the RoseGarden developers should
take a look at another Open Source project --- Impro-Visor
and "lift a whole bunch of tools out of it.

As computers continue to get more powerful, I can envisage the two
projects merging.  Right now, nearly all professionals using Impro-Visor
and the vast majority of students generate files they touch up and
orchestrate in RoseGarden.

Such an application would not be "thin", I've got around 2000 cores
working on Impro-Visor routinely with another thousand or so readily
available, so that is serious music AI.  RoseGarden then applies serious
leverage to Impro-Visor results.

OK, I've said it.  A live grenade in the room.

Have fun,



>
>
> On 14/04/2016 03:32, D. Michael McIntyre wrote:
>> On 04/13/2016 06:52 PM, Silas Mortimer wrote:
>>
>>> No problem. I just need to work out how to add the arpeggio notation
>>> in Lilypond.
>>
>> It's hacky and weird.  Use the text tool.  Choose type "LilyPond
>> Directive" and insert an "Arp."
>>
>> That prints the squiggly arpeggio symbol on the score.  I never gave
>> Rosegarden the ability to represent this natively, and no one else ever
>> bothered either, so this is what we've got.  Hacky and weird.
>
> IMHO Rosegarden *shoud not* become / be a fully-fledged notation /
> lilypond editor and focus on being the (great) free (as in freedom)
> sequencer it is :)
>
> I mean, I don't want to bash discussions etc. about notation, but
> Rosegarden already has some of the best notation support for any
> sequencer around, and personally I would like to see (possible) effort
> go into bugfixing and improvements in the sequencer / production
> department.
>
> Randomization, 'humanisation', groove quantize etc. (the subject of the
> thread) would be cool and are IMHO part of those possible improvements ;)
>
> Just my two cents :)
> Lorenzo.
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Find and fix application performance issues faster with Applications
> Manager
> Applications Manager provides deep performance insights into multiple
> tiers of
> your business applications. It resolves application problems quickly and
> reduces your MTTR. Get your free trial!
> https://ad.doubleclick.net/ddm/clk/302982198;130105516;z
> _______________________________________________
> Rosegarden-user mailing list
> [hidden email] - use the link below to unsubscribe
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/rosegarden-user
>



------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Find and fix application performance issues faster with Applications Manager
Applications Manager provides deep performance insights into multiple tiers of
your business applications. It resolves application problems quickly and
reduces your MTTR. Get your free trial!
https://ad.doubleclick.net/ddm/clk/302982198;130105516;z
_______________________________________________
Rosegarden-user mailing list
[hidden email] - use the link below to unsubscribe
https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/rosegarden-user


------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Find and fix application performance issues faster with Applications Manager
Applications Manager provides deep performance insights into multiple tiers of
your business applications. It resolves application problems quickly and
reduces your MTTR. Get your free trial!
https://ad.doubleclick.net/ddm/clk/302982198;130105516;z
_______________________________________________
Rosegarden-user mailing list
[hidden email] - use the link below to unsubscribe
https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/rosegarden-user
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Humanizing MIDI tracks

Lorenzo Sutton
On 16/04/2016 16:59, Fernando A. Martin wrote:

[...]

> 1 - For strumming arpeggiated chords: we can place each note of the
> chord in a different segment and then set the delay of each segment. I
> think this is faster than writing the whole chord in a single segment
> and then changing the delay of each note individually.

Not sure if this has been mentioned / is relevant, but in both matrix
and notation editors you can 'jog' (move in time) by 1/32 increments
selected notes with ALT + Right / ALT+Left - For certain scenarios this
(using the keyboard) could speed up adjusting note onsets e.g. creating
quick 'arpeggio' effects....
But of course YMMV :-)

Lorenzo.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Find and fix application performance issues faster with Applications Manager
Applications Manager provides deep performance insights into multiple tiers of
your business applications. It resolves application problems quickly and
reduces your MTTR. Get your free trial!
https://ad.doubleclick.net/ddm/clk/302982198;130105516;z
_______________________________________________
Rosegarden-user mailing list
[hidden email] - use the link below to unsubscribe
https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/rosegarden-user
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Humanizing MIDI tracks

Abrolag
On Mon, 18 Apr 2016 10:59:58 +0200
Lorenzo Sutton <[hidden email]> wrote:

> On 16/04/2016 16:59, Fernando A. Martin wrote:
>
> [...]
>
> > 1 - For strumming arpeggiated chords: we can place each note of the
> > chord in a different segment and then set the delay of each segment. I
> > think this is faster than writing the whole chord in a single segment
> > and then changing the delay of each note individually.  
>
> Not sure if this has been mentioned / is relevant, but in both matrix
> and notation editors you can 'jog' (move in time) by 1/32 increments
> selected notes with ALT + Right / ALT+Left - For certain scenarios this
> (using the keyboard) could speed up adjusting note onsets e.g. creating
> quick 'arpeggio' effects....
> But of course YMMV :-)
>
> Lorenzo.

You can also select and jog all the notes in a segment without changing the
segment's overall position - very useful for latency correction.

--
W J G

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Find and fix application performance issues faster with Applications Manager
Applications Manager provides deep performance insights into multiple tiers of
your business applications. It resolves application problems quickly and
reduces your MTTR. Get your free trial!
https://ad.doubleclick.net/ddm/clk/302982198;130105516;z
_______________________________________________
Rosegarden-user mailing list
[hidden email] - use the link below to unsubscribe
https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/rosegarden-user
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Humanizing MIDI tracks

Silas Mortimer
In reply to this post by Lorenzo Sutton
On Mon, Apr 18, 2016 at 3:59 AM, Lorenzo Sutton
<[hidden email]> wrote:
> Not sure if this has been mentioned / is relevant, but in both matrix
> and notation editors you can 'jog' (move in time) by 1/32 increments
> selected notes with ALT + Right / ALT+Left - For certain scenarios this
> (using the keyboard) could speed up adjusting note onsets e.g. creating
> quick 'arpeggio' effects....
> But of course YMMV :-)

I will definitely have to try that! Man, there's so much stuff to learn, lol.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Find and fix application performance issues faster with Applications Manager
Applications Manager provides deep performance insights into multiple tiers of
your business applications. It resolves application problems quickly and
reduces your MTTR. Get your free trial!
https://ad.doubleclick.net/ddm/clk/302982198;130105516;z
_______________________________________________
Rosegarden-user mailing list
[hidden email] - use the link below to unsubscribe
https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/rosegarden-user