Bug or feature?

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Bug or feature?

Abrolag
I suspect the former :(

The way to demonstrate it is:

Start a segment on (say) track one, record a bit then stop.
Go into the Event List Editor and put in a volume change near the start.
Start another segment on the same track after the end of the first one and
record on that.

Playback, without stopping, through a synth that shows volume levels.

You'll see the correct change in the first segment, but the second one will jump
to the track's default value. This applies to things like panning too.


This seems quite wrong to me, and caused me a lot of trouble until I had a
track with changes that were big enough for me to notice the fader move
significantly.

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Re: Bug or feature?

D. Michael McIntyre-3
On 03/26/2016 03:25 PM, Abrolag wrote:

> This seems quite wrong to me, and caused me a lot of trouble until I had a
> track with changes that were big enough for me to notice the fader move
> significantly.

https://sourceforge.net/p/rosegarden/bugs/1516/

I'll come down on the side of bug, but I'm not in a good position to
dive in and tinker with this one.  I have a vague idea what's going on,
but I've never seen the code.  Find the code, figure out how it works,
figure out how to teach it some new rules...  It just feels like more
work than I could possibly accomplish right now, and I'm not even going
to make the attempt.

Maybe after I have transitioned to my new job in about a month.
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Re: Bug or feature?

Abrolag
On Sat, 26 Mar 2016 17:09:29 -0400
"D. Michael McIntyre" <[hidden email]> wrote:

> On 03/26/2016 03:25 PM, Abrolag wrote:
>
> > This seems quite wrong to me, and caused me a lot of trouble until I had a
> > track with changes that were big enough for me to notice the fader move
> > significantly.  
>
> https://sourceforge.net/p/rosegarden/bugs/1516/
>
> I'll come down on the side of bug, but I'm not in a good position to
> dive in and tinker with this one.  I have a vague idea what's going on,
> but I've never seen the code.  Find the code, figure out how it works,
> figure out how to teach it some new rules...  It just feels like more
> work than I could possibly accomplish right now, and I'm not even going
> to make the attempt.
>
> Maybe after I have transitioned to my new job in about a month.

Any chance of some progress on this. I've just tried build 14635 and the
problem is still there. I've actually reverted to 14235 on my DAW :(

I do lots of multi-segment tracks and this was becoming a nightmare.

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Re: Bug or feature?

Ted Felix-2
On 05/04/2016 01:35 PM, Abrolag wrote:
>> https://sourceforge.net/p/rosegarden/bugs/1516/
> Any chance of some progress on this. I've just tried build 14635 and the
> problem is still there. I've actually reverted to 14235 on my DAW :(

   Should have a fix in a week or two.  This is proving to be very
difficult to fix due to the auto channels feature.  I have it fixed for
playback, but MIDI export is broken.

Ted.

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Re: Bug or feature?

Abrolag
On Wed, 4 May 2016 15:21:17 -0400
Ted Felix <[hidden email]> wrote:

> On 05/04/2016 01:35 PM, Abrolag wrote:
> >> https://sourceforge.net/p/rosegarden/bugs/1516/ 
> > Any chance of some progress on this. I've just tried build 14635 and the
> > problem is still there. I've actually reverted to 14235 on my DAW :(  
>
>    Should have a fix in a week or two.  This is proving to be very
> difficult to fix due to the auto channels feature.  I have it fixed for
> playback, but MIDI export is broken.
>
> Ted.

Thanks Ted. I do appreciate that these things aren't as easy as they look :(

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Re: Bug or feature?

Ted Felix-2
On 05/04/2016 04:40 PM, Abrolag wrote:
> Thanks Ted. I do appreciate that these things aren't as easy as they look :(

   Looks like bug #1516 might be fixed now.  Grab the latest svn and
give it a whirl.

https://sourceforge.net/p/rosegarden/bugs/1516/

Ted.

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Re: Bug or feature?

Abrolag
On Wed, 11 May 2016 19:12:40 -0400
Ted Felix <[hidden email]> wrote:

> On 05/04/2016 04:40 PM, Abrolag wrote:
> > Thanks Ted. I do appreciate that these things aren't as easy as they look :(  
>
>    Looks like bug #1516 might be fixed now.  Grab the latest svn and
> give it a whirl.
>
> https://sourceforge.net/p/rosegarden/bugs/1516/
>
> Ted.

Thanks Ted. I just had a quick look at this on my office machine and it looks
good :)

I'll do a more complete test this evening on my DAW.

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Re: Bug or feature?

Abrolag
On Thu, 12 May 2016 07:32:18 +0100
Abrolag <[hidden email]> wrote:

> On Wed, 11 May 2016 19:12:40 -0400
> Ted Felix <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> > On 05/04/2016 04:40 PM, Abrolag wrote:  
> > > Thanks Ted. I do appreciate that these things aren't as easy as they look :(    
> >
> >    Looks like bug #1516 might be fixed now.  Grab the latest svn and
> > give it a whirl.
> >
> > https://sourceforge.net/p/rosegarden/bugs/1516/
> >
> > Ted.  
>
> Thanks Ted. I just had a quick look at this on my office machine and it looks
> good :)
>
> I'll do a more complete test this evening on my DAW.
>

Ran a number of projects on this some with several bank/program and CC changes
across segments and tracks.

All behaved exactly as I wanted with changes only being made by the specific
commands in the files. :D

Thanks a lot.

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Re: Bug or feature?

Lorenzo Sutton

On 13/05/2016 10:52, Abrolag wrote:

> On Thu, 12 May 2016 07:32:18 +0100
> Abrolag <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
>> On Wed, 11 May 2016 19:12:40 -0400
>> Ted Felix <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>
>>> On 05/04/2016 04:40 PM, Abrolag wrote:
>>>> Thanks Ted. I do appreciate that these things aren't as easy as they look :(
>>>
>>>    Looks like bug #1516 might be fixed now.  Grab the latest svn and
>>> give it a whirl.
>>>
>>> https://sourceforge.net/p/rosegarden/bugs/1516/
>>>
>>> Ted.
>>
>> Thanks Ted. I just had a quick look at this on my office machine and it looks
>> good :)
>>
>> I'll do a more complete test this evening on my DAW.
>>
>
> Ran a number of projects on this some with several bank/program and CC changes
> across segments and tracks.
>
> All behaved exactly as I wanted with changes only being made by the specific
> commands in the files. :D
>
> Thanks a lot.
>
Does this solve the problem where if I open yoshimi (or it is already
opened) and load a state file *before* opening file in rosegarden,
rosegarden will fire a set of program changes which effectively mangle
my yoshimi state?

Lorenzo.


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Re: Bug or feature?

Ted Felix-2
On 05/13/2016 06:06 AM, Lorenzo Sutton wrote:
> Does this solve the problem where if I open yoshimi (or it is already
> opened) and load a state file *before* opening file in rosegarden,
> rosegarden will fire a set of program changes which effectively mangle
> my yoshimi state?

   Probably not.  We still send the initial setup out on file load to
get external synths ready.  If you don't want bank selects or program
changes sent out, uncheck the Bank and Program checkboxes in the
Instrument Parameters box for each track.

Ted.

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Re: Bug or feature?

Lorenzo Sutton


On 13/05/2016 13:18, Ted Felix wrote:

> On 05/13/2016 06:06 AM, Lorenzo Sutton wrote:
>> Does this solve the problem where if I open yoshimi (or it is already
>> opened) and load a state file *before* opening file in rosegarden,
>> rosegarden will fire a set of program changes which effectively mangle
>> my yoshimi state?
>
>   Probably not.  We still send the initial setup out on file load to get
> external synths ready.  If you don't want bank selects or program
> changes sent out, uncheck the Bank and Program checkboxes in the
> Instrument Parameters box for each track.
>
> Ted.
That's actually what I (think I) do, or better, what I do is to create a
new midi output usually called something like "yoshimi" which is just
blank (i.e. not general midi etc.) and would assume that wouldn't be
sending anything. Still a bunch of program changes (and maybe
controllers) is sent upon file load...

For scenarios like yoshimi and external synths which already have
bank/patch/state management it would be nice to have an option to not
send anything upon file load / playback, but only if it is in the
events. i.e. if I have controllers explicitly written in the segment I'd
obviously want those sent.

Lorenzo.

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Re: Bug or feature?

Ted Felix-2
On 05/13/2016 07:54 AM, Lorenzo Sutton wrote:
> it would be nice to have an option to not
> send anything upon file load / playback

   We should be closer to this now.  Using a device with the controllers
removed and unchecking the Bank/Program checkboxes should result in
nothing going out.  Try it out with the latest and see if anything
remains to be done for this.

Ted.

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Re: Bug or feature?

Lorenzo Sutton


On 16/05/2016 14:41, Ted Felix wrote:
> On 05/13/2016 07:54 AM, Lorenzo Sutton wrote:
>> it would be nice to have an option to not
>> send anything upon file load / playback
>
>   We should be closer to this now.  Using a device with the controllers
> removed and unchecking the Bank/Program checkboxes should result in
> nothing going out.  Try it out with the latest and see if anything
> remains to be done for this.

Hi Ted, what do you mean with controllers removed? You mean explicitly
removing them from the device set-up? This (I think) would disable use
of controller rulers (as reverse to adding controllers which enables
rulers) and that would be rather inconvenient.

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Re: Bug or feature?

Ted Felix-2
On 05/16/2016 09:44 AM, Lorenzo Sutton wrote:
> Hi Ted, what do you mean with controllers removed? You mean explicitly
> removing them from the device set-up? This (I think) would disable use
> of controller rulers (as reverse to adding controllers which enables
> rulers) and that would be rather inconvenient.

   Ok, then that's still a problem for you.  So, you need a "Send
Initial CCs" checkbox (to uncheck) on the Instrument Parameters panel.
That should be relatively easy to implement.  I assume it would cause
the knobs to go away since there's no point in them if no initial CCs
are going out.

Ted.

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Re: Bug or feature?

Lorenzo Sutton
On 16/05/16 22:10, Ted Felix wrote:

> On 05/16/2016 09:44 AM, Lorenzo Sutton wrote:
>> Hi Ted, what do you mean with controllers removed? You mean explicitly
>> removing them from the device set-up? This (I think) would disable use
>> of controller rulers (as reverse to adding controllers which enables
>> rulers) and that would be rather inconvenient.
>
>    Ok, then that's still a problem for you.  So, you need a "Send
> Initial CCs" checkbox (to uncheck) on the Instrument Parameters panel.
> That should be relatively easy to implement.  I assume it would cause
> the knobs to go away since there's no point in them if no initial CCs
> are going out.

No wait! I still want to be able to mess with volume and controllers
(knobs in tracks and automation in the matrix).
What I would like to exlude is sending them when the file *loads*, but
this especially applies to bank/program change which mangles my yoshimi
state file I (possibly) already opened in yoshimi.

But it maybe a corner case so maybe also hear what other users think :)



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Re: Bug or feature?

Ted Felix-2
On 05/16/2016 04:25 PM, Lorenzo Sutton wrote:
> No wait! I still want to be able to mess with volume and controllers
> (knobs in tracks and automation in the matrix).
> What I would like to exclude is sending them when the file *loads*,

   Ok.  I'll have to think some more about that.  It's probably easily
doable with a composition level setting.

> this especially applies to bank/program change which mangles my yoshimi
> state file I (possibly) already opened in yoshimi.

   Try the latest with the bank and program checkboxes unchecked and let
me know if this part is now fixed.  It should be.  If not, it should be
easy to fix.

Ted.

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Re: Bug or feature?

Abrolag
On Mon, 16 May 2016 20:39:59 -0400
Ted Felix <[hidden email]> wrote:

> On 05/16/2016 04:25 PM, Lorenzo Sutton wrote:
> > No wait! I still want to be able to mess with volume and controllers
> > (knobs in tracks and automation in the matrix).
> > What I would like to exclude is sending them when the file *loads*,  
>
>    Ok.  I'll have to think some more about that.  It's probably easily
> doable with a composition level setting.
>
> > this especially applies to bank/program change which mangles my yoshimi
> > state file I (possibly) already opened in yoshimi.  
>
>    Try the latest with the bank and program checkboxes unchecked and let
> me know if this part is now fixed.  It should be.  If not, it should be
> easy to fix.
>
> Ted.

I'm still interested in this and will come back to you, but currently I'm snowed
under with coding crap <- engineering term.

Will.

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Re: Bug or feature?

Abrolag
In reply to this post by Ted Felix-2
On Mon, 16 May 2016 20:39:59 -0400
Ted Felix <[hidden email]> wrote:

> On 05/16/2016 04:25 PM, Lorenzo Sutton wrote:
> > No wait! I still want to be able to mess with volume and controllers
> > (knobs in tracks and automation in the matrix).
> > What I would like to exclude is sending them when the file *loads*,  
>
>    Ok.  I'll have to think some more about that.  It's probably easily
> doable with a composition level setting.
>
> > this especially applies to bank/program change which mangles my yoshimi
> > state file I (possibly) already opened in yoshimi.  
>
>    Try the latest with the bank and program checkboxes unchecked and let
> me know if this part is now fixed.  It should be.  If not, it should be
> easy to fix.
>
> Ted.

Decided to have a look at this and I can't find any such check boxes - prolly
means I'm looking in the wrong place.

My take on this is that we should have the choice of being able to stop
Rosegarden doing *any* initialising of the destination synth(s) but still pass
through any MIDI messages embedded in a file, or sent from and external source.

Now I appreciate that some older devices may start up in an undefined state but
no modern ones should, so I wonder if a per device initialise checkbox should be
placed in Manage Midi Devices -> Midi Outputs.

If checked, then Banks, Program, CCs all would be sent at startup to just that
device, otherwise only messages as above.

As for the existing controls would it be practical to make them still operate,
but actually embed the appropriate CCs in a running file? Or is that over the
top?

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Re: Bug or feature?

Ted Felix-2
On 06/15/2016 10:40 AM, Abrolag wrote:
> On Mon, 16 May 2016 20:39:59 -0400
> Ted Felix <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>     Try the latest with the bank and program checkboxes unchecked and let
>> me know if this part is now fixed.  It should be.  If not, it should be
>> easy to fix.
> Decided to have a look at this and I can't find any such check boxes - prolly
> means I'm looking in the wrong place.

   Those are in the "Instrument Parameters" box on the left side.
That's where you set the initial bank select/program change/controllers
to be sent out on each track when the composition is loaded.  Uncheck
them and no bank selects or program changes will go out on a track.

> My take on this is that we should have the choice of being able to stop
> Rosegarden doing *any* initialising of the destination synth(s) but still pass
> through any MIDI messages embedded in a file, or sent from and external source.

   The idea behind sending this stuff out is that Rosegarden is in
control of bank/program/CCs.  So, it needs to send out something
initially to make sure everything is where it should be for the start of
the composition.

> Now I appreciate that some older devices may start up in an undefined state but
> no modern ones should,

   IME, all modern devices start up in a defined but useless state.

   My P-105 (not an old device at all) starts up with all channels set
to play Piano (at volume 100 and pan center).  This is useless to me and
there is no way for me from the front panel of the P-105 to say "I want
channel 2 to be bass and 10 to be drums."  So, I rely completely on RG
to set up the instruments on each channel.

   This is the way every synth I have works.  What are you using, and
how/why is it different?  I'd like to run some experiments to better
understand what you are getting at here.

> so I wonder if a per device initialise checkbox should be
> placed in Manage Midi Devices -> Midi Outputs.

   Something like this would belong in the device file for a specific
device.  I suspect that you aren't using device files tailored to your
synth(s).  And this might be why things aren't working as they should.

> As for the existing controls would it be practical to make them still operate,
> but actually embed the appropriate CCs in a running file? Or is that over the
> top?

   That's what the rulers are for, if I'm following what you are saying.
  If you want us to record changes to the controller knobs in the
Instrument Parameters panel or on the MIDI Mixer as they happen
(automation), that's a pretty big feature request.  Doable, but will
take some time.

   I think it would be best for you to get me set up so that I can see
what you are talking about.  It all seems very strange to me right now.
  It's not how I work with rg at all.

   Give me a rough list of what I need to do to get in sync with you.  I
can figure out the details.

Ted.

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Re: Bug or feature?

D. Michael McIntyre-3
On 06/15/2016 03:14 PM, Ted Felix wrote:

>     Those are in the "Instrument Parameters" box on the left side.

If they're missing, it's because you don't have any banks/programs
defined in the studio.

>     The idea behind sending this stuff out is that Rosegarden is in
> control of bank/program/CCs.  So, it needs to send out something
> initially to make sure everything is where it should be for the start of
> the composition.

Yup.  Theoretically, if you don't define anything in the studio, there
shouldn't be anything to set to a known state.  I would almost bet we
still set pan/volume/reverb/chorus for legacy reasons though.


>     I think it would be best for you to get me set up so that I can see
> what you are talking about.  It all seems very strange to me right now.
>    It's not how I work with rg at all.

Leave it to users to come up with weird stuff.  Especially THAT rascal. :-P

--
D. Michael McIntyre

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
What NetFlow Analyzer can do for you? Monitors network bandwidth and traffic
patterns at an interface-level. Reveals which users, apps, and protocols are
consuming the most bandwidth. Provides multi-vendor support for NetFlow,
J-Flow, sFlow and other flows. Make informed decisions using capacity planning
reports. http://pubads.g.doubleclick.net/gampad/clk?id=1444514421&iu=/41014381
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